Multiple Tesla vehicles were set on fire in Las Vegas and Kansas City
Multiple Tesla vehicles were set on fire in Las Vegas and Kansas City
Public Tesla dissent continues.
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In posts on X following the incident, Tesla CEO Elon Musk called the incidents “terrorism” and said the company “just makes electric cars and has done nothing to deserve these evil attacks.”
OK buddy.
The cars suck, but he's right that the company hasn't done anything to deserve this. He's the one who chose to make himself the face of Tesla, though, so however people feel about him, they'll feel about any business he owns.
Terrorism, though? Hardly. It's protest. He's the one doing terrorism by dismantling the government.
The cars are poorly designed to the point of being dangerous. They deserve it a little.
This is terrorism. Storming the capitol is clearly not.
Terrorism, though? Hardly.
Pretty much the definition of terrorism. Doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
That's what was so terrifying about the Patriot Act for so long.
It's property damage that was done specifically to avoid hurting people. By that interpretation, Banksy could also be classified as a terrorist.
Man that's some podium level mental gymnastics.
ZACHARY, La. (BRPROUD) – The Zachary Police Department says they arrested a former student after Zachary High School was tagged with graffiti.
Police say that Shyron White was arrested at his home in Livingston Parish for drawing a triangle with a symbol in it on the exterior doors. Graffiti was found in several locations around the building, and police were alerted on Tuesday.
“It’s always important to not damage someone else’s property. It costs money and time to, you know, to actually fix,” Zachary Police Department Chief Daryl Lawrence said. “And then you’ll have people like us out looking for you.”
Lawrence said an incident like this is not common for the Zachary community. White is booked in the East Baton Rouge Parish Prison, charged with terrorism, criminal damage to property, aggravated assault and criminal trespassing.
This is the Orwellian shit you're advocating when you start classifying vandalism as terrorism.
Yes, it is. I don't know what "a triangle with a symbol in it" is but if it's associated with an ideology then that fits the definition, yes. Judges and juries are allowed to exercise discretion, and I hope that they do. That has no bearing on whether it is or is not terrorism.
Violent, criminal acts
Property damage is not violence and nonviolent protests are not terrorism. They will claim it is. They are lying.
Gonna disagree with the anarchist viewpoint because physical damage to inanimate objects can still cause PTSD, battered spouse syndrome with enough incidents over time, etc. It's the threat of danger that matters.
Just because it doesn't fit your ideological view doesn't mean people are lying by looking at it differently
It’s the threat of danger that matters.
Correct! It is the threat of danger that matters. Domestic violence as you described is threatening and abusive, and therefore violent.
Is it the same thing when the property is owned by a company, not a person?
Is graffiti terrorism? It's property damage. It can be ideologically motivated. If someone had spray painted the cars, instead of lit them on fire... would it still be terrorism?
Who was threatened here?
Yep the idea of terrorism bad is honestly kinda overly simple. Can it be bad? Sure especially if you don't have a specific target but well the IRA, American Revolutionaries, and Zapatistas have shown that there is a good way to go about it. The term of the day is damage minimization.
Surprisingly, Star Wars is a great example of this. A rinky dink political group (rebels) blowing up a military installation (death star) is terrorism. That does not mean the action was unjustified.
But they're at war though, aren't they? I suppose the Empire would still spin it that way.
I mean, technically any rebel group is at war with their oppressors.
Terrorism that succeeds is called revolution.
It's not terrorism if it's war.
Yep. Nobody (okay, very few people) want to burn Teslas, or make car bombs, or dress up as indians and throw a shipment of tea into the Boston harbor, but when you live in a state where the government is no longer governing for the people (even if the people knowingly, or unknowingly selected that government), ignores it's citizens or even actively harms them, then you don't have much choice. You have to defend yourself.
Property damage is not violence
Every definition that I can find says it is but maybe you'd like to provide one that says otherwise.
Its an Anarchist thing, you wouldn't get it.
Super simple version?
Violence is defined by the state in such a way that it binds the actions of its subjects, but exempts the actions of itself/its agents.
Look up 'systemic violence' or 'stochastic terrorism' and you can begin to see how it becomes harder to draw very clear lines than you seem to think is.
Lets go with your definition that violence includes acts against property.
Ok... are... taxes violence?
Is it violent to threaten you with immediate arrest if found operating a car without a valid liscense?
Howabout valid insurance?
Is civil asset forfeiture violence?
Is emminent domain violence?
Howabout clearing a homeless encampment, destroying all their belongings?
Is that violent?
Is it violent to, either intentionally or unintentionally... crash the stock market and knock about 20% off of the value of 401ks of the majority of the population?
Reminder that involuntary assault and involuntary murder / manslaughter... are violent crimes.
... The most basic definition of what a State is, is "a formalized group that has the 'legitimate' monopoly of the use of force (violence) within a defined geographic area."
So you don't have one? Glad we sorted that.
Oh, are you asking me, personally, for a definition of violence, just flat out, with no context?
I'd say violence is anything that causes unnecessary suffering to a living being, or significant damage to a nonliving thing.
What exactly do I mean by that?
Well, its quite context dependent.
Is burning down a Tesla dealership violent?
Sure!
Is a lesser act of violence in pursuit of a reduction of much, much greater violence justifiable?
Again, context matters, but generally speaking, the world is built upon violence, people just disagree about when it is justified.
If a man has pummeled you with hammer blows, you'd be justified in doing some violence back to him to get him to stop.
If a cartoon supervillain has become either the most or second most poweful man in the world, he has a history of and declared intention to commit mass systemic violence against hundreds of millions of people... and burning down some of his shittily designed and built self-immolating cars stands a good chance at knocking him, his grip on the minds of his idiot sycophants, and his overall level of power and influence down a peg?
When there are no 'legitimate' means that will effectively do this, effectively lessen his capacity to do violence against millions?
When this harms only things directly, and not people? When those things are overpriced luxury items?
Well, I'd rather not keep taking the hammer blows.
If you've got a more peaceful way to stop the hammering, I'd love to hear it... but my bones are breaking.
are you asking me, personally, for a definition of violence
No I asked for a definition that doesn't include property damage.
Is burning down a Tesla dealership violent? Sure!
Glad we cleared that up.
No I asked for a definition that doesn’t include property damage.
If you read what they're saying, they made a pretty good argument for why the definition of violence can include property damage.
You can stick your head in the sand all you want, but only reading answers that match your opinion is a good way to go insane.
Well you accused me of whataboutism, so I explained how... yeah you could see it that way if you only look at the surface, but it's really a way of illustrating a more complex idea.
And well, here you go again, attempting to distill everything into neat, simple little boxes.
Twice now I quite literally explained to you how context is important in ... you know, definitions, which literally are a network of syntactic associations that are context... and now you've selectively replied by removing all of the context I gave.
So uh, yes, I'm glad we've cleared up that you are definitionally a simpleton, only insterested in very surface level, simple understandings of things.
When the person that started this thread said 'property damage is not violence', they likely (I can't read minds, but I've got a hunch) meant that property damage is not of the same magnitude of severity, does not or should not be judged by the same set of standards as violence directly against a person, that the entirety of a scenario involving violence should be considered when assessing it.
IE, they're using shorthand, and I attempted to unpack some of that shorthand for you.
Sort of like how the colloquial definition of 'theft' generally includes shoplifting, but generally excludes wage theft by employers, despite wage theft being of considerably greater monetary magnitude than shrink loss.
If you want 'a definition' of violence that doesn't include property damage, here you go:
Violence is any act that causes direct harm to a thing capable of suffering.
Now you can point out how that's a flawed definition, and I will redirect you to my comments on your own flawed and favored definition of terrorism from the FBI, and my own previous attempts at better defining violence, and then maybe we can have the actually interesting conversation about violence and property that you've thus far done your damndest to avoid.
Spraypaint a traffic camera, violence.
So what I'm hearing is, if you burn Tesla because their CEO is a scum-sucking useless billionaire who is dismantling the social services that you and your family rely on (and paid for!), in order to cut taxes for the 1%, you're a terrorist.
If you set shit on fire because you like to watch stuff burn, you're just a plain ol' arsonist.
If that's what you're hearing, you should have your ears checked. It doesn't matter who the offending person is or what they do. It only matters what the perpetrator does.
Yes, I believe that is what I wrote.
No, what you wrote is:
If you set shit on fire because you like to watch stuff burn, you're just a plain ol' arsonist.
Yes, but that definition also defines... basically all the most heinous things that Trump and those around him have done in the last... 5 years, lets say? ... as terrorism.
Remember CPAC, 2022?
... kinda speaks for itself.
You can make that argument but you're not arguing that burning down a Tesla dealership isn't terrorism, you're just making a whataboutism.
Yes, that is basically what I am doing.
Was that not clear?
I am attempting to point out the given definition of terrorism is quite broad, and easily interpreted subjectively depending on your biases.
Burn down a Tesla dealership?
Terrorism.
Boston Tea Party?
Terrorism.
Jan 6th?
Terrorism.
Bay of Pigs Invasion?
Terrorism, more technically 'State Terrorism'.
Many, many acts of resistance groups in German occupied Europe during WW2?
Also Terrorism.
Order an extrajudicial assasination? Order or carry out mass arrests without proper warrants or authority?
Plant false evidence or fabricate some kind of 'suspicious behavior' to justify an arrest or detainment or use of force or conviction, motivated by a political/religious/ethic/etc bias?
Again, Terrorism, though more specifically that is 'State Terrorism'.
Saying "I am going to kill [very important political figure]"?
Terrorism.
Pilot a ship on the sea to harass dragnet fishing boats or whalers?
Terrorism.
Any protest group that has 'illegally' gathered in an area or building without a permit, where a single person threw a punch or resisted arrest?
Again, also terrorism.
... All of these things either are or could easily be interpreted to be both violent and criminal acts, with either a motivation or desired effect being biased toward some specific group of people.
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism
You may note that precisely defining terrorism is actually somewhat difficult, as indicated by the wide range of different definitions used by different groups and at different times, and is actually the subject of a whole lot of academic and legal debate and disagreement, with slight but very significant differences over time and place/jurisdiction.
There we go, hahah!
Then we are in agreement
Great!
I am glad you agree that by your (the FBI's current) definition, most police in the US are terrorists, every President going back to at least JFK is a terrorist, everyone who violently resisted the Nazis were terrorists, and every single protest everywhere, ever, that has involved any single member of that protest being charged with resisting arrest has also been terrorism.
I didn't agree with any of that but I won't disagree either.
You said 'we are in agreement' to my last post in this thread, and my last post in this thread pointed out that all of those scenarios are terrorism with the definition that you chose as 'pretty much the definition of terrorism'.
So yes, you did agree.
But now you don't agree, but also do not disagree.
... Could it possibly be the case that the definition of terrorism you chose is a bit too broad?
Rather it is vandalism, because Terrorism, its acts cause terror in the population.
nobody is terrified, except for billionaires, like crybaby musk.
Rather it is vandalism
I don't understand what you wrote but the two are not mutually exclusive.
And yet they're different things in this context anyways.
I didn't say they weren't different.
Then your pedantry was either pointless or a rhetorical attempt to derail the conversation.
The person I replied to was trying to derail the conversation by trying to say it was X and not Y, when in fact it was both.
At least I think they were.
Sure, Felisha. Bye bye now 👋
Not sure why some people are disagreeing - it for sure fits the definition. I'm not exactly sad about it - Musk is helping to rip apart the country and I have a hard time blaming people who feel that helping to rip apart one of his companies is about all they can do - but committing arson to further an ideology is terrorism.
Not sure why some people are disagreeing
They don't like the connotation. Which is fair. Nuance is hard and if you say "yes, we're terrorists" there's no way that's not going to be wielded against "your people" in the court of public opinion.
But facts are facts.
criminal acts
With this definition, a government can do anything it wants without it being terrorism because it gets to decide what's criminal. So while it may be terrorism by definition, that definition is pretty useless without a lot of context.
This is resisting, not furthering, ideological goals.
Could you state the ideological goal of these attacks?
Could you state the ideological goal of these attacks?
fuckelon
I'd say that's an ethos rather than an ideology.
lifestyle baby
This is resisting, not furthering, ideological goals.
It's the same thing.
Could you state the ideological goal of these attacks?
Seriously? You need that explained to you? How much time do you have? Eccentric billionaire seeks to destroy democracy, manipulate the public, oppress and marginalize it's people, consolidate wealth in the elite class, dismantle federal institutions that check him, defy the law, for starters. You haven't heard about any of this? The "ideological goal" is to end it.
Sorry but I really don't think it's the same thing. People are motivated to do this to oppose an ideology, not to promote one. They could come from almost any ideological starting point, and all they want, essentially is a return to the status quo.
Again, which ideology does this action promote?
Sorry but I really don't think it's the same thing.
There's no need to apologize for disagreeing. Just explain yourself.
People are motivated to do this to oppose an ideology, not to promote one
How can you not see that those are the same thing?
Again, which ideology does this action promote?
I just explained that in great detail in the comment you replied to...
Opposing the construction of a highway is not the same as trying to construct a highway.
It’s not terrorism. They were just peacefully touring the dealerships. Just like January 6. Peacefully touring.
"Evil attacks", like we're killing puppies, or something.
It's vandalism against machines, and the only victim here is the insurance companies.
“Evil attacks”, like we’re killing puppies, or something.
Leave the puppy killing to the expert, Kristi Noem.
Also some people who bought teslas before all this happened having their rates go up. And the people who had their Tesla vandalized or totaled who didn't get a good enough payout from insurance to replace it (if you've ever dealt with insurance you know you're not getting the actual value back). I'm not saying I'm losing sleep over it, but still.
I had a friend buy a Tesla after Elon was talking about buying twitter but before one could objectively say he went full fash, and I told him he'd be embarrassed about it eventually. He went through with it because it had X features or whatnot. Do I feel bad for him? A little, but it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall. Obviously once Elon was with Trump 24/7 he said he regretted it, but it's a bit late for that.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, so it sucks to see consumers be targeted, but I understand. I have a phone and I'm sure somewhere child slavery was involved. Does that make me a bad person? Yes, the answer is objectively yes. We're all making shitty choices every day and if one day someone decides to draw the line and I'm on the wrong side of it, I guess I'll just have to cope. That's kinda how I feel about it. So Tesla owners are being harmed too, but I don't know that I'd call them victims of anything except their own decisions. I'm not sure they deserve it all equally, but we all kinda suck so whatever.
The board needs to remove Elon today.
yep. I don't get why they haven't. He's tanking their shit badly.
They just paid fucking 60 billion dollars to him to keep him from quitting. Maybe a smidge of sunk cost fallacy.
Sigh. Fuck Elon. I hope the piece of shit goes bankrupt. Probably wont happen though :/
If trump had lost the election, he would be in jail and Elon would have been destroyed. Instead, we got… this.
yup. It's a sad state of affairs right now :/
I think Elon would have been better off if Trump lost. I dunno though. He bought Twitter for 44 billion, and that seems to have let him buy the presidency for a mere 200 million. So maybe it's money well spent.
Good. Let them drown with their sinking ship. They enabled his power grab in the first place and decided something as perverted and absurd as granting a single man $60 billion. Let this be a lesson in history books.
Did that actually get paid out? Last I heard the judge said no, multiple times.
Yep. There was another shareholder vote and he won it.
No. As of 7 days ago, he has not been paid the $50 billion. The judge's order is holding for now.
https://www.theregister.com/2025/03/12/elon_musk_appeals_voided_pay_package/
Oh huh. I just remember him winning the new shareholder vote for which I believe the stakes were "gimme money or I leave" despite there being no legal requirement to pay him.
the honeymoon from the election is just wearing off.
the board are his handpicked toadies that have him a bonus despite tesla losing money
You can remove him from the board but he'll still have all of his shares. And I'd bet he's not really doing much as Tesla these days anyway.
Not much except getting their dealerships torched.
My point was that they're doing what they're doing to hurt Elon. Removing Elon from the board does not prevent them from hurting Elon.
Even if they do, protests and boycotts need to continue past it. A lot of his wealth is in Tesla stock, and he's going to benefit from the shadows if the public moves on and TSLA recovers.