EU wants over 70s to prove they can still drive every five years
EU wants over 70s to prove they can still drive every five years
"This is pure age discrimination. They cannot provide any evidence or figures to show that drivers aged 70 and over would be more often involved in accidents."
The European Union wants elderly people (70+) to undergo medical tests from now on to prove that they are still capable of driving a car every five years. However, the proposal has been met with a lot of criticism.
Very good. As a german, I'd welcome this.
However, expect heavy pushback from the German automotive industry. They are for Germany what the NRA and weapons manufacturer lobby is to the US.
If a german pensioneer can't drive a german car with more than 250 kph on the german Autobahn from north to south, west to east: how can we have EINIGKEIT UND RECHT UND FREIHEIT?
/s
You are missing this: !!!1111
Does the German automotive industry also exercise immense power and influence in both politics and society?
That's a solid "Yes, definitely!"
Germany is unbelievably car-centric for a developed country. It's also nicely planned, so most of the time you can survive pretty well without a car, but car is still the king here
When the idea of a general speed limit was proposed, people were literally screeching "but muh freedom!!!"
No, but the pensioneers themselves do having nearly an absolute majority in elections.
German here, can confirm. This is 100% true.
Why would there be any pushback from the industry? They don't have to. Pensioneers basically have an absolute majority (I think the 50:50 cut in voters was at 60,something and raising last federal election) so they already control all policies.
This would be great. We should also require all drivers to pass small exams every ~10 years in order to assert that they are up to date with new laws and new types of infrastructure.
Or better yet, deal with aquired bad habits and hopefully break people out of them.
That seems wildly regressive and disproportionately would harm working poor people, who generally would struggle to afford the time and expense involved.
There's no evidence that experience degrades driving skill, just aging
There’s no evidence that experience degrades driving skill, just aging
Have you never seen a taxi or professional on the road before? lol
As for the working poor, you could easily say that using tax money and law changes that you could force them to get a paid day off once per 10 years for the test, and maybe free lessons and a payout for time spent. I'm sure that the gain in tax money from lower road usage and deaths would pay for this service and replacement transport like public buses.
Experience does not take new laws and infrastructure changes into account, I know plenty of 40-50 year olds who clearly are not up to date on regulations.
Everyone mentions cognitive abilities, which is also important, but really physical abilities should be tested as well.
Here in america, My 89 y.o. grandmother (at the time) used canes to get around. Got her license renewed just by a written test, no one batted an eye. The fact that she "walked" in was enough and no one saw that she would physically have to pull her leg up to push the brake pedal.
She got into quite a few fender benders after that, and 1 pretty bad accident that totalled her car. That bad accident was responsible for a huge decline in health. She cant drive any longer, but between the insurance and the burden on family to support her ailing health, it all could have been avoided if they required a doctor's signature for renewal.
I do realize that something like this takes away from feeling independent and maintaining autonomy, and i feel for that. It sucks that part of growing old is...well, growing old, but should those emotions outweigh personal and public safety?
There was a man who lived on my street who drove way way way into old age. His car was literally covered from front to back in dents. You’d see him walking to his car so slowly it was painful. He’d struggle to get the door open, hop in, and take off. It seemed like he had a new dent every time he came home.
I knew another man though, WWII vet, 98 years old. His wife was 93. He’d come to my store and buy cigars for himself and cigarettes for the wife. He had no issues getting around at all. I was legit shocked when I found out how old he was. His health deteriorated so quickly seemingly out of nowhere and he was still trying to drive, but fortunately his daughter stepped in and put an end to it.
Now his daughter has dementia. One day she stopped in to buy cigarettes for her mom and she asked me if I knew her son. It kind of took me by surprise. I’ve known the whole family for 20 years at this point.
Her son had a serious car accident in the mid 2000s and he’s been in a wheelchair since. He lost both of his legs, half of one of his hands, fingers burned off at the ends on the other. He barely survived.
She was telling me about the accident like it had just recently happened. She was crying, said almost word for word what she’d said to me all those years ago while he was in the hospital. Such a surreal experience.
Next time I seen her she asked me again, “Do you know my son?”
Then she tried to pay for her fuel 3 times back to back.
She’s still driving. Everyone knows that she’s experiencing these problems including the local police, but she’s still out there driving around.
I feel like this makes for a good argument for adequate public transit in the United States. If elderly people had access to public transit, then they might not feel like they are losing their independence if they can't drive.
Good Idea. It's widely accepted that cognitive capabilities can decline rapidly with old age. It simply makes no sense that a person that needs 8 tries and 10 minutes to change the station on their TV is still allowed to operate a two ton death machine without any checks in place.
The important part here is to make it so that it ONLY "catches" declined driving capabilities and is not also biased in terms of social and financial status or maybe if you're an immigrant or something.
Reaction speed in particular.
If you steer your 3 ton SUV around a corner and suddenly find yourself facing off a mother pushing her stroller across...or if you´re on the Autobahn and round the bend, there´s the tail end of a traffic jam...reaction speed is what makes the difference between "holy shit" and "that´s it".
By the way, there ARE aspects of operating a motorvehicle on public roads that would warrant regular refreshers at all ages, like first aid or keeping up with the ever changing traffic laws. And I´d be totally up for that. But that´s another discussion.
Oh and ask me about mandatory basic child health and safety courses for soon to be parents. Yes, I have lots of opinions ;-)
If they would do that we would finally get a strong lobby for decent public transport!
Medical tests?? bleh. Driving is driving, health is health. All drivers should have a to retake basic driving tests at an increasing rate until by the age of 70 where it maxes out at once per 5 years or something.
I agree, especially since medical tests won’t show the driver slowing down as they enter a roundabout or taking a full minute to shift lanes or positioning themselves so they can’t even look in the rearview mirror.
A ton of driving is about behaviors and tendencies. A driver that has no awareness of other drivers is a dangerous driver, regardless of how good their heart, eyes, or reaction time. Dementia obviously affects this, but you can get a clean bill of health from your doctor and then drive off home in the left lane at 5 below the speed limit because other people are just going too damn fast.
Absolutely, people forget its a privilege to drive heavy killing machines around and it should come with more tests for all drivers and harsher penalties for law breaking to keep the roads more safe.
I wish we could test for cognitive ability for voting access over 70.
The german satire party DIE PARTEI wanted to implement a highest voting age. If you can't vote the first 18 years of your life, you shouldn't be able to vote the final 18 years.
I seriously hoped it would have been implemented The older folks seem to ruin germany more the older they get
I've been saying the same thing for years. We should revoke voting status 18y from whatever the national average lifespan. That'll never happen, though.
And...below?
Hasnt all the american presidents in the last years been over 70?
Bill Clinton was especially young when he was elected.
Honestly seeing how people drive ~10 years after getting their licence I think we need a kind of test every 10 years, not necessarily because of declining cognitive capacity but just generally forgetting about safety
although it would be pretty expensive to check absolutely everyone
I agree with this except im too cynical to believe people just forget about safety. People learn to pass the test and then drive how ever the hell they like. Granted alot of people are safe but i see far too many people just completely disregarding anyone else on the road and their only goal is to get to the front of the line as fast as possible and screw everone else.
They can retake their test, they will drive safely and carefully that one day and then go right back to being selfish idiots.
I would maybe go as far as to say thst there is a requirement to have a black box installed in all cars that gets switched off/removed after a number of years of safe driving. And if you drive badly or unsafely then your insurance goes up every year until you prove you are safe.
Maybe it goes up by x amount £100 or like 10% or 20% a year until you stop driving badly but remains at the price it was when you start driving safe for 3 years before dropping back down to the price it would be without the increases you incurred. That would stop people from trying to cheat the system.
It may be extreme but if you are driving safely you have nothing to worry about.
Of course we would have to nail down exactly what counts as unsafe driving so it wasnt overly/unjustly critical.
I mean.... maybe its a bad idea. But again. If its not you then you needn't be worried.
Lol... First they came for the people doing 20 over, and I don't drive 20 over, so I said nothing. Then they came for the ones doing 15 over, and I don't do 15 over, so I said nothing...
You're talking about applying fees and profits to people deemed "less safe" by some arbitrary measurement, and assuming that said fees and profits will never be applied to you because you meet what will be the likely initial standard, but you're assuming the arbitrary measurement will remain fixed... And it absolutely will not.
The thing is, the revenue you're suggesting as an incentive to avoid those behaviors will become a documented and budgeted source of revenue for someone, somewhere, and if your pie in the sky works, and said revenue reduces because the roads get safer, the people who've budgeted that revenue will be incentivised to tighten the restrictions to regain the revenue loss, all in the name of safety, of course...
Of course, you have nothing to worry about if you're willing to comply with the increasingly restricting goalposts...
that's true, a lot of people probably KNOW how to drive safely (according to their license's definition) but just don't care
About the black box thing, that may actually be a good idea, but hard to execute
That's how Italy does it already
not necessarily because of declining cognitive capacity but just generally forgetting about safety
And because rules, regulations and the reality of traffic changes.
There's this new move to make roads where bicycles are granted priority more prevalent, but the specific rules of how it works are completely unknown to most people who got their license more than 10 years ago. Same for reserved car sharing parking spots. Same for some rules around electric vehicles, etc. etc.
It would just be good to make sure people who are operating a vehicle are current on the rules of actually driving a car - rather than relying on "that's how I learned it, back in the day!"
An online test that you have to pass to renew your license would work well enough.
There's a pretty serious concern here about the mobility and independence of the elderly... but that can't be put over and above public safety. I see either very anxious and hesitant, or completely off with the fairies and uncaring elderly drivers on a frequent basis.
They wouldn't get anywhere near a licence if they had to demonstrate their competence even once more, let alone semi-regularly.
Mobility for the eldery IS important but IMHO there should be affordable, easy accessible options without the use of a personal vehicle. Otherwise it get's harder and harder for the eldery to participate in social activities which are beneficiary to mental health and prevent early symptoms of Alzheimers disease.
Well, indeed, nobody actively wants the elderly to be forced in to solitude and isolation. If anything, the advent of driverless vehicles would be of greatest benefit to them rather than tech bros who want a nap.
Here in the Netherlands I see a lot of old people being bussed around point-to-point with minibuses. Likely limited to the bigger cities though where there also better normal public transit options.
This is quite a brilliant idea. Although we could argue that everyone of all ages should be somewhat tested every x years. The amount of people that are over confident and forget things on the road is quite scary.
I do agree with you, but most of those people do that on purpose and will just drive like they should for those 30/60 minutes. I don't see elderly be able to do that.
I kind of agree with this, I do think that an exam should be done every so many years, but I don't think that full on driving test should need to be done. At most maybe a minimal test like make sure you can still do intersections fine and make sure you still know how to use your blinker in Etc but honestly I don't feel like a full-on test is going to be beneficial for anything, a timed exam with common sense questions such as who has the right away in this situation, or when is it appropriate to go through a yellow, basic stuff
In the case of the eu, this isn't an actually a driving test; it is more so of a medical test so like vision and memory tests to verify that you still have situational awareness, which I think will do tremendously more then your standard driving test where you may not even hit a situation that requires a lot of situational awareness
In my opinion it should be doctor every 5 years, driving test every 10. And as you get significantely older both intervals get reduced.
I don’t think that full on driving test should need to be done
A full on driving test should be done at least once though. Where I live (Pennsylvania), the "driving test" is basically going around the block and then parallel parking one time. In no sense can it be considered as a comprehensive test of a driver's command of a wide range of potential situations.
Should be every two years really. Then how about every 5 years for everybody else.
Exactly what do you expect to affect most of the people in their twenties or thirties in 5 years, that would justify this massive expense of time and money?
Growing old has many effects on people, but actually remembering or even re-learning the rules of driving in traffic would be great! Many of us would not even be able to pass the driving exams 10 years after getting our license, and it shows in traffic
I support this. Cognitive function obviously declines as you get older. And elderly people have been lucky enough to live their lives. What if an 80 year old goes out driving, is quite infirm or easily distracted, and kills a 20 year old driver? That 20 year old has the chance to live stolen from them, while the 80 year old already got to live their life.
In Germany he'll get a few month license suspension and pay a fine of a couple hundred to a thousand euros.
Every other month there is news of an elderly drover killing someone under gross violation of traffic laws, e.g. driving on the wrong side of the road, accessing one way lanes from the other side, speeding, crossing red lights etc. Then the court rules that granny is seriously sorry, but sze explained that she needs the car, so out and about again. Doesnt matter if she already killed people in a traggic accident that was 100% her fault.
Yes, please make it happen! There was a subreddit called /r/RentnerFahrenInDinge (pensioners driving into things) that was full of new articles of elderly people being completely clueless in traffic.
[email protected] done
I wish I would have known this back in May
This sounds totally reasonable, maybe the time frame is even a little too long for people over 80. Like it or not, your body, sight, reflexes etc do change.
My country has this system, and at the check the doctor also can determine how often you need to take a check.
Good, I completely agree with this. Maybe once they hit 80, every year.
Why 80 years old even needs to drive? Their reflexes are slow, their vision is bad, their hearing is catastrophic. Why just dont let someone drive them/use taxi/public transport?
While I totally agree, and myself when or if I hit 80 probably wont be driving around, it will still happen. There will be stubborn 80 and above that will continue to want to drive for their independence. And if they want to, they should absolutely be tested.
Honestly tho, lets get real here for a minute. This is a large 1 ton machine that could easily kill someone. Shouldn't we have mandatory tests eventually for everyone? I mean, after driving for 25 years or so, there have been rules that have changed, safety measures that are different than when I took drivers ed, and lets face it, my skills are nearly as sharp as they used to be due to complacency we all experience.
Wouldn't that idea lower the amount of traffic fatalities a bit? I could see it turn into a cash grab and there would be strong opposition. I don't know, maybe I'm just stoned.
As someone who lives in a town with a high proportion of elderly people, I am not against this idea. We do need to make sure that people found no longer capable of driving safely are able to get the support they need to keep living their best life.
Good.
Normalize checking peoples cognitive abilities.
Provided age is not the trigger given that no proof has been provided supporting the age limit.
I can sort of understand the downvotes, but can anyone link a study maybe?
Well random age limits are all over. For Voting, Working, optainig the driver license, drinking, being out late, You name it.
Frankly this is one of those things I kinda hope self-driving cars will help fix, given that we’ll just never have decent public transport.
Over 65? Here’s a test every year. Can’t drive to a high standard? Licence invalidated, go get yourself a car that drives itself, which at this point should be going for a comparable price.
If you're over 65 I don't think actually driving is the only thing stopping you from getting around. Imagine your grandparents with a VCR and then imagine them using on of them "Google thingies" to control a car.
Yeah this is really good. My wives grandfather is still allowed to drive, but I wouldnt go anywhere near him when hes driving.
Good. Old people will tolerate a terrifying number of medical problems before going to a doctor
My father has heart + breathing problems causing him to randomly get dizzy+out of breath whilst sitting down doing nothing. We've told him he shouldn't be driving but he says he knows what he's doing as he's been driving for over 60yrs. We reported him to the DVLA because he's going to kill someone.
Every single year!
also require ALLLLLLLLL heavy vehicles to have an alcolock, it doesn't even need to be tremendously sensitive, just giving people that clear reminder that they shouldn't drive drunk would be so helpful.
I am for it, but I hope they'll make these tests simple, short and low level. We really only want to remove the ones that a re obviously incapable of driving.
Finally!
Is there evidence that elder people cause more accidents than younger? I only find opposite data, e.g. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37292951
There is a difference why these accidents happen. Young people cause accidents because they are more often risky drivers. Older people more often cause accidents because their cognitive abilities decrease with age.
With driving tests you can reduce the number of accidents for the latter but not the former.
For sure older drivers must indirectly cause accidents too. They pull out too slowly in front of people, they don't move with the flow of traffic which causes slowdowns, and they swerve into other lanes without turn signals. None of these may cause accidents with them, but can cause other people to end up in accidents because of the unpredictability.
I fully support more frequent tests for people whose cognition is declining.
I actually also support more frequent tests for everybody because there are a lot of people who should NOT be allowed to drive just because they're so bad and/or dangerous. Driving is a privilege, not a right, which comes with very serious consequences when done poorly.
Not sure I agree with both parts of your premise, there. Young drivers can pass their tests, and then on the first day that they have their license, go out in some Lamborghini supercar unsupervised on the motorway, finances allowing. It encourages a 'I have this bit of plastic, I'm as good as anyone' mentality; together with the general impetuosity of youth, you get the risky, accident-causing behaviour.
Compare that to a motorbike license - pass driving theory and CBT, and then a practical test, and you get the bog-standard licence to ride a chicken-chaser moped. You can then work your way up the licences, with minimum age requirements and time for holding each, until you have access to the big bikes, finances allowing. Make car drivers do the same, that'll cut down on the risky behaviour and the scale of the accidents that they could cause.
Admittedly, about the shittiest car that you can buy now will still do a hundred miles an hour, so you'd need some artificial limitations on power and which roads you can use..
To be fair, there’s also a large quantity of younger drivers that would benefit from this idea. You see some weird things happen in traffic sometimes, and bad driving skills are not exclusive to the elderly.
Finally some EU law that makes sense.
This proposal can’t stand. Germany will destroy it! We'll find a solution; we're going to make it voluntarily.
Because we know about and appreciate our seniors' wise awareness of their limits. And their love of cars, of course.
/s
Ceuld never work in the U.S. where there is terrible public transit. People would just starve in their homes.
Should be every 2 years - for everyone with a license.
That seems beyond excessive.
It shouldn't. That's a monumental administrative task. My gov can barley keep up with issuing passports. Imagine having to reissue drivers licenses with a check up every 2 years for everyone...
That seems expensive to enforce. It would make more sense for people to be tested every 10 years till age 68, every 5 years till age 78, then every two years after that.
The retiring age will be 70, we have an huge gap between young and old generation numbers and now this. A lot of old people in the future will need to work and/or will be have little safety net. Think about that.
Only every 5? JFC remind me to never go anywhere near European roads.
Sure.... those stupid Europeans and their lacking road safety. Oh, wait...
Yet you chose to reply anyways. It's always these bougie bullshit to pull the ladder up first then promise a better one that never comes.
