linuxmemes @lemmy.world loaExMachina @sh.itjust.works 8mo ago

Wayland vs Xorg be like

Yes, I made it using a laptop's trackpad, how could you tell?

[Image description: Panel 1: Young man confidently walking, his vest bears the Wayland logo. Behind him is a grunt with the Gnome logo on his face holding a katana. The young man says: "It's high time you retire, old man!" Panel 2: An old man with a long beard and the Xorg logo on his chest is sitting on a throne and petting a rat, the XFCE mascot. He says: "It's still a hundred years too early for you to defeat me!" ]

74 comments

Today, X is like the horse and buggy proponents, claiming the car isn't feasible cause you can't get gasoline in every town.
- I mean, what's that one complaint about electric cars?
  
  That you get like no mileage after hours of changing?
  
  They come infestated with proprietary software making them more of a tech product than a mode of transportation which leads to fear on their repairability as well as whether or not you'll own the damn thing after you spend a quarter million years paying it off
Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore. X11 is stuttery, unsecure, unmaintaned, can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR). For now with my usage, the only big disadvantage I saw from Wayland is that you can't restart it like X11 when something goes wrong, but that's the thing, I haven't had to restart it like I had to often with X11. Even on Nvidia Wayland is better now, except maybe for gaming but that's Nvidia for you.
- You absolutely can restart Wayland. The command to do so is just specific to whichever DE or WM you're using as they have their own Wayland Compositor implementation.
  
  DEs should implement good commands for that
  
  start session from tty (example startplasma-wayland)
  
  logout (example qdbus org.kde.ksmserver /KSMServer logout 0 3 3)
  
  restart wayland server (example kwin_wayland --replace)
  
  Some of those are completely undiscoverable
- X11 is stuttery
  
  Not for me
  
  unsecure
  
  Source?
  
  unmaintaned
  
  Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg
  
  can't really be updated for new features that are pretty important in 2024 (VRR, HDR).
  
  VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate
  
  For HDR you have a point, afaik.
  
  Wayland gets so many more of the basics so much better than X11 it's not even funny anymore.
  
  And yet X11 works rock solid for me, while Wayland still crashes whenever I so much as look at it wrong. The amount of time and work I've lost because of Wayland crapping out on me isn't even funny anymore. On AMD by the way, so no blaming Nvidia's crappy Linux support.
  
  Wayland will probably be the better product one day, but this day is not that day, at least not for every use-case. Great that it works fantastically for you, I genuinely advise you to keep using it, but keep in mind that 'mileage may vary' from person to person. Personally for now I'll stick to X11, as I need to get work done and unfortunately don't have time to muck around with Wayland's antics.
  
  Not for me
  
  Source?
  
  The Xorg devs have literally stated as much themselves.
  
  Received a number of commits just last week: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg
  
  The vast majority of those commits are literally because of Xwayland.
  
  VRR is supported, at least on AMD: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate
  
  Barely, it has numerous issues. The Wayland VRR implementations address much of those issues.
  
  For HDR you have a point, afaik.
  
  HDR literally can't be added to Xorg without rewriting the entire stack. They've been trying to get HDR working for something like around 10yrs before they gave up completely.
  Wayland on the other hand has been designed from the ground up to be completely expandable, directly addressing the largest problem with Xorg, maintainability.
  
  ...at least not for every use-case... ...‘mileage may vary’ from person to person...
  
  Yes, that's true. What would reduce edge cases however, is if you reported those bugs.
  
  Wayland will probably be the better product one day...
  
  That day is coming sooner then later.
  
  Personally for now I’ll stick to X11...
  
  That's fine, however you should switch as soon as it becomes viable to do so.
  
  X11 is insecure. Any program can read any keystroke, any windows contents, can input anything anywhere etc.
  
  The concept of separate apps basically doesnt exist.
- 10% FPS drop compared to X11 because of perfect frame requirements
  
  X11 has literally never stuttered even on the hack that is WSL
  
  The only time I have actually gotten X11 to crash was an unrelated kernel panic.
  
  Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can't do.
  
  Also no one uses X11 networking by default lmao, its always X forward over SSH, that is definitely secure and still something wayland can’t do.
  
  Sure it can, with waypipe (like, for a while now...)
  Just waypipe ssh [command]
  
  You can even run X apps over this through cage even when X11 forwarding is disabled by the host (because, you know, the security issues...)
  
  I see you have never used nVidia cards.
Okay now do one with systemd
It's the systemd drama all over again
- No.
  
  System D was/Is a philosophical debate.
  
  Wayland vs X is a mortal attempting to summit Mt. Everest naked. Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.
  
  Even the X people are like "Honestly it'd be a relief if you pulled this off, we're so tired, please end us"
  
  No one thinks it'll succeed? Obviously you and I exist in very different parts of the linux sphere, cause I'm pretty sure X11 is all but dead as a project and its kinda just a question of how long it takes for Wayland to be feature complete enough to reach a critical mass of adoption. And its kinda feeling like we're currently on the cusp of being there with the major DEs moving towards discontinuing X11 support 😅
  
  Everyone is cheering Wayland on, no one believes it'll succeed.
  
  Uhhmm. I think by now most see it inevitable with distros and DEs switching on increasing pace
  
  What the fuck is “System D”?
Chad X11
Except X.org should be frail and have tubes running out of every orifice on their body. They are on life support and receiving updates only related to Xwayland.
Is that the C++ mascot rat? As famously illustrated by rms?
- I choose to believe that's the Xfce rat. The C++ one is fatter
  
  No one asked but, the mascot's name is Xue btw.
  
  Can't be Xfce. No vsync line in the middle
Nice reference as Xfce still not implemented Wayland support as far as I know.
- Yeah duh. It's called X fce??!?
  
  so when they finish Wayland implementation will be Wfce? lol
- They are working on it, while keeping the xorg session alive
Very true. Like I would love it if something worked as solidly as X but Wayland has had like 15 years to get it's shit together and it's still not there. There are plenty of people for who it does work too but 2 out of the 3 computers I use regularly have issues with Wayland.
- I have to always be 1/3 lol
- I have 4 computers, all run Wayland, none have issue. If you have some nVidia or otherwise exotic Hw you may have issues, but Wayland is already very mature for regular use.
  
  On my old laptop with a dedicated Nvidia card and integrated AMD Wayland works as long as you only use integrated graphics otherwise crashes are common.
  
  On my new laptop with both integrated and dedicated AMD graphics it works without issue.
  
  On my desktop with a 5800x3d and 7900XT it's usable but on Wayland hardware acceleration of video just does not work for some reason. About half of more demanding games have a very noticeable stutter and there is a full system freeze every week or so. With X those issues aren't present on that machine.
  
  As I said: Works for some people but not for others.
Honestly it will never die but it will be a terrible idea to use it. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the major software drops support eventually
At this rate, maybe 10
A hundred years to early
One of the main issues blocking me from going to Wayland is an app (cursr) that lets me move my cursor between different resolution displays only runs in X. Is there a solution in Wayland for this? I can post elsewhere but thought this seemed like a decent first step
This is good stuff right here.
As far as tablet usage goes - with Ubuntu 23.10 running the latest "Surface Linux" kernel on my Surface Go gen 1, Wayland is finally buttery smooth. Screen rotation with Wayland is near instant, where as on xorg takes a couple seconds.

I can't say the same for my dual boot desktop that has an Nvidia 1050ti in it going to a 55" tv monitor via HDMI though - had to hook up a second monitor from dvi just to be able to login - which was not the case on Xorg.

Oh well, baby steps, but Wayland is definitely growing up fast and getting closer to being daily dtiver ready for nearly all use cases.
Isn't the mascot a mouse instead of a rat?
- @DmMacniel @loaExMachina Yes, and her name is Xue.
I don't have X installed on my desktop or laptop. Haven't for some time.
i like x because it runs well on my legacy hardware

but i'm also rooting for progress, so i'm also glad xfce is adding wayland support

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