posting 'tankie' is the new 'woke' slur on a lemmy instance..
posting 'tankie' is the new 'woke' slur on a lemmy instance..
On lemmy.world I posted a comment on how liberals use 'tankie' as an invective to shut down dialogue and received tons of hateful replies. I tried to respond in a rational way to each. Someone's said 'get educated' I responded 'Im reading Norman Finkelstein's I'll burn that bridge when I get there' and tried to keep it civil.
They deleted every comment I made and banned me. Proving my point, they just want to shut down dialogue. Freedom of speech doesn't existing in those 'totalitarian' countries right? But in our 'enlightened' western countries we just delete you.
It's why it's really funny that there's a decent amount of libs trying to pretend that Lemmy (either .ml or as a whole) is this super "tankie" thing when they're really the opposite
Like, if the rest of the Lemmy universe was "tankie" we wouldn't need Lemmygrad in the first place
This is liberal mental space, full of "freedom of speech". Liberalism is a cancer which leads to right extremism. And social democracy leads to liberalism. If you exclude ML from discourse, you eliminate whole left wing point of view consequently.
Unrelated, but I like your pfp.
Thank you comrade!
As Hakim or Yugopnik (I can't remember exactly) said, "tankie" is the new "commie"
Yugopnik I think from memory. He was saying how libs can't say "commie" because its such a dated word and nobody takes it seriously (except some conservatives who still say it unironically which is actually hilarious😂). It's too much associated with redscare era propaganda. Tankie doesn't carry this baggage but has exactly the same function.
We should call liberals coupies because of all their coups.
There is already the term dronie which is a defender of neoliberalism and their imperialistic policies.
cool idea but i think this gives them too much credit. libs blindly support every war and blindly swallow every hot distraction, while believing they do neither. i think it is too kind to focus on just the coups.
That is such an excellent way to put it. I’m using that.
I like David Graebers choice of calling them "extreme centrists"
That's a good one.
P.S. I want to take the opportunity to tell you that I like your username. I'm downloading my legally aquired copy of Metal Gear Solid now.
fr
If someone calls me a tankie I roll my eyes, but what makes my blood boil is the term "red fascist." What the actual F? I would have been in a fascist concentration camp for at least 3 reasons
No need to resort to suppositions; just look at Thälmann.
The term of "red fascist" is not only (purposefully) insulting to the memory of actual MLs who came under repression and execution from the hands of fascists (and ignoring that in many fascist states they were the forefront of resistance against it, see: the PCE under francoist Spain), but also dangerous as it blurs fascism as a word with a meaning, making actual fascism harder to identify and, thus, to combat.
There's a reason why fascism has to be redefined, blurred, or otherwise trivialized. Most libs don't do it on purpose but they serve reaction by doing so. If we actually learned the true socio-economic definition of fascism we'd very quickly realize that the golden billion live in nations which are arguably fascist.
Coming smugly from the people who have historically always allied with the fascists, it's a special kind of disgusting.
Sometimes it kind of of makes me feel really irritated in a way because like, a lot of these people who are so overly concerned over "tankies", don't have that energy directed at fascists or reactionaries? They seem more concerned over "tankies" than reactionaries or fascists who are in power in various places and are hurting people. Like they will make a post or whatever denouncing "tankies", but where is that towards fascists? or reactionaries? If anything all they do is help fascists and reactionaries whether they are aware of that or not.
I’ve talked about this before, albeit the topic was about self‐identified anticommunists, but I am sorry to say that it applies to a lot of leftoid noobs as well. Anybody who poses obviously loaded questions like ‘why is it being a “lib” to say that governments who repress the human rights and civil liberties of minorities are not practicing leftism in good faith? the same governments who have horrifically and violently crushed workers rights movements?’ does not need to be dignified with a serious response. You can’t make these bipeds educate themselves no matter how good your evidence is; it simply isn’t a matter that’s within your hands.
Do something else: unionize, agitate for better working conditions, exercise, train with a weapon, do some volunteer work, contribute to volunteers (like Food Not Bombs), or engage with communists or communist sympathizers who are very clearly asking in good faith. Personally, I spend my most productive time studying modern history, and I’ve amassed a respectable répertoire of knowledge. I can confidently say that you’ll learn more about capitalism in decay from me than you’ll ever learn from any horseshoe theorist or dullards saying ‘red fash’ unjokingly.
Basically, get offline. Every single conversation I've had about communism in person, I can at least get people to view communist history from a rational perspective less clouded by propaganda. Even if they don't "agree" they can at least respect it and can marinate on it later.
Online arguments with liberals are pointless. At least the arguments on lemmygrad are mostly good faith and even if there are disagreements there's a lot of learning that happens. Arguing on mainstream liberal forums just opens you to being brigades by bots, reactionaries, and people who are participating in bad faith to begin with.
Damn, son, you went off and gave me a reading list… continue
It's also happens when liberals talk about foreign policy. The reduce critics of US foreign policy and NATO "America bad." Which is exactly as reductive as the hyperbolic critique they're trying to make.
A lot of this comes from the community from the streamer whose name starts with the v and who used to go by Irish Lassie. His community is especially toxic when it comes to using the term tankie as a pejorative.
And they don't even keep the smear to people that support the Bolsheviks. They've been saying that about Noam Chomsky and Jeremy corbyn and basically anyone that has been critical of NATO in the last few years.
A lot of this comes from the community from the streamer whose name starts with the v and who used to go by Irish Lassie. His community is especially toxic when it comes to using the term tankie as a pejorative.
And they don’t even keep the smear to people that support the Bolsheviks. They’ve been saying that about Noam Chomsky and Jeremy corbyn and basically anyone that has been critical of NATO in the last few years.
Imagine calling fucking Chomsky a tankie XD
XD
The polish virus spreads! Yes! Hahaha! Yes!
Sounds like a psyop.
I don't think more info is needed to conclude he is a fed.
I got 11 upvotes on a Ho Chi Minh quote in the clown shoes thread. Was that all you guys?
I see it got deleted. Ho Chi Minh should have known better and organize Vietnam's liberation from colonialism through confederated and horizontally-organized municipal communes, I suppose.
Can they delete this?
If he had just asked the US nicely for support to follow through on Wilson's self determination thesis first. This would've avoided war but communists can't help themselves, can they?
(Ho Chi Minh did ask nicely at first, then realised Lenin's theory of self determination was the only legitimate one when the yanks laughed him out the room. Turns out Wilson was only talking about self determination for 'civilized people'.)
One of them was me. Love your username BTW
Liberals are incapable of intelligent conversation with others, especially those of opposing viewpoints. They've been trained to desire and maintain the status quo (Capital), even in the face of creeping fascism, and will parrot insults at anyone who doesn't tow the line. 'Tankie' is just the newest term.
It's just western red scare paranoia with a millennial twist. I hadn't peeked at those communities before, but I'll make sure they're given a wide berth now.
often true. But judging from this thread same goes for stalinists
Wow you're not using liberal the american way are you? What is your definition of the world liberal?
Edit: Downvoting me for asking a question is so reddit of you, feels like home <3
Liberals in America are capitalists just as much as they are in the rest of the world. The Democratic party never fails to extol the virtues of capitalism. At best they say it should be regulated.
I mean liberalism in the sense of support for things like private property, liberal 'western' democracy and an exploitative, laissez-faire approach to market economies. I am American; perhaps I'm just not understanding the varied meaning of the word?
Sorry for the long comment, hope this clarification helps. If others disagree with my explanation, feel free to clarify or call out any wrong ideas. I'm a new Liberal convert so I'm still working through these details.
In essence, the "left" are socialists, the "right" are fascists (Glossing over some details here). Fascism is authoritarian capitalism, but Liberalism is capitalism that's not fascism. Liberalism is theoretically to the left of the political spectrum, but it's a compromise to the capitalists.
Our problem with Liberals is they seem completely incapable of having a real conversation about how the world works, and how to make change. As well, they demonize anyone that doesn't share their viewpoint.
For example: "Woke" is kind of a fake word now, it means whatever conservatives want it to mean, but it comes from a real place. Initially being woke meant that you see the injustices that are institutionalized in the world, and seek to better yourself after learning that information. This is a good thing and lead to more people understanding the contradictions of our wold. But Liberals kinda turned into "I'm better than you because I went 'woke'", "If you aren't woke, then leave my circle of friends", "Anything that isn't woke isn't worth talking about". This perpetuates the culture war that the conservatives are winning, because in the end, who wants to side with the assholes who push their own out at any sign of disobedience? The fascists are playing open arms to everyone the left excludes, perpetuating the growing movement of right authoritarianism.
I was a liberal for a long time, but always felt out of place because although the conservatives made up a lot of bullshit about liberals, they touched on some real things that also irritated me. Instead of moving to the right, I was educated and looked at the source of some of these things. That led me to find where the real problems of the world were, opened my eyes to those that were in charge, causing these problems in the first place. That lead me to socialism, communism, etc. and now I think I'm more on the 'left' than I have ever been.
Because this is a communist sub, and he is using the world liberal in the way that communists use it, in the way it was meant to be use when it was created, that actually describes what it is. You’re getting downvoted because it’s really frustrating answering the same simple concept questions over and over again to people who don’t care to actually learn, and who are already being slightly obnoxious when answering the question right from the get go.
omg i just had the misfortune of wandering into this thread, https://lemmygrad.ml/post/806853 i am so glad we have our own space where we can safely laugh at these fools. omg.
Holy shit what an insufferable group.
"Define Tankie"
Red fascist
Who defines a buzzword with a buzzword ffs.
Also! (Paraphrasing)
[...] people who justify genocides. [...]
'scuze me what the fuck? Who here says genocides are cool and good actually? We are like the first fuckers to point them out and scream about them???
And even more!
Comrade Spood
Now that's dose of Anarcho-Debilizm let me tell you. "Just press the communism button Xi and we'll succeed no problem! They will just let us exist and everyone will love each other :3"
And it just still keeps going!
Educate yourself. / Please change and grow as a person. / Read a book.
Motherfuckers I read too much compared to your sorry asses.
Yeah it was torture. I tried to keep it civil and lighthearted and actually engage but they are so programmed it's almost knee jerk comment reaction at this point.
Also fun and great that so many Lemmy instances won't federate material that threatens their worldview. I mean, I'm 100% anti Nazi anti fascist and anti authoritarian but what does that even matter right? How dare I say there might be a different way to view say Cuba China Vietnam or North Korea...
And I had the misfortune of not resisting to participate in it. Do not recommend.
the brainworm infestation has proved devastating
Go ahead liberals. Call me a tankie. See if I give one ten thousandth of a fuck. Literally such a low-tier insult. “Uhh its like… uh…you support this large cool looking machine that stopped Color Revolutions and was responsible for Liberating the Eastern Front during World War II” “Yea, I do😐” “😨”
Tankie means you approve when a communist state uses military/tanks against its own people... Not against a Nazi state. I would reconsider if you really want to wear that label with pride..
What is your opinion on the standing rock protests and the Kentucky state massacre
Also the 1956 Hungarian coup attempt that the epithet "tankies" comes from was literally full of nazis lmao
Liberals once again refusing to acknowledge their hippocracy. They must be fuming after Comrade Hakim's latest video
Hakim is so on point. Brilliant video.
By the way, it seems that moderators in 196 are deleting those comments from lemmygrad posters in a way that appear as visible while seen from lemmygrad while they appear as deleted by mods from any other instances (or so I suppose, I do not know very well how does Lemmy work). This is happening even if there is no breaking of rules in sight.
it seems that moderators in 196 are deleting those comments from lemmygrad posters in a way that appear as visible while seen from lemmygrad while they appear as deleted by mods from any other instances
Whoa, that's pretty 1984 Animal House of them
I just need a bot that blocks any user that used the word. Problem is it would block all if you here.
I dislike hateful talk, and it includes "tankie"
It might be interesting to start a conversation on the appropriate comm there about whichever rule is being enforced (check the modlog) and challenge the rule.
If you mean the blahaj 196, i doubt it will do anything, because it's apparently this rule by their mod:
"FUCK THEM WOKES!!!"
interesting that the "T word" is used by them to "trigger" you, but they were [triggered] in the end
Man people call me a tankie out of nowhere all the fucking time.
I mean I am but it comes across as super bad faith when it’s immediately out of the gun without even hearing me out.
So I've heard tankies defined as "someone who specifically supports the centralized, authorization flavor of communism practiced by the USSR". They also often mention worship of Stalin and Mao, and a revisionist version of history supporting such a stance
This seems odd to me, especially since a group of tankies flocked early to a decentralized platform geared for long-form discussions
Personally, I believe capitalism is an ideological virus. You can trace a clear path from the Roman empire to the modern day, where a hyper-specialized society eradicated every other system of resource husbandry by sloppily harvesting as quick as possible and using that advantage to gangpress everyone else into service under them (and destroying anything that would even slightly slow down the process )
I don't think communism is the answer, because I don't think it's a path we can walk without first curing the disease, but the guiding concepts resonate with me.
So in that light, I'd like to ask in good faith:
Self-identified tankies - how do you define a tankie?
Someone asked a very similar question the other day. Here's a link to my reply, in case you're interested: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/559425. And related to this, I also recently wrote something about the need to defend a revolution: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/565520.
To answer your questions…
I don't self identify as a tankie and I'm not sure that anyone does. It seems to be a broad term used by anti-communists so that they don't have to do the hard work of engaging with what's being said.
If anyone does call me a tankie it's because I'm a Marxist-Leninist (ML). MLs are historical materialists. This involves a way of looking at the world that was first developed by Marx and Engels. Historical materialism (himat/histmat) applies dialectical materialism (dimat/diamat) to human society, treating reality as interrelated processes, not things.
This methodology is opposed to bourgeois ways of thinking and of other 'vulgar' strains of Marxism. As MLs interpret the world according to himat, they say things that can be incomprehensible to those who don't know understand dialectics or materialism.
Chomsky is a good example. He's a renowned prof at a top university but he admits that he doesn't understand himat and has never tried to. How can one possibly deal with one's opponents arguments in good faith without even trying to understand where they're coming from? An honest theoretician would admit that he's simply talking past his opposition, as might e.g. Ronald Dworkin or John Finnis (IIRC). Not Chomsky, who gives the perception that he's understood his opponents before dismissing them. Anyway, I digress.
I don’t think communism is the answer, because I don’t think it’s a path we can walk without first curing the disease, but the guiding concepts resonate with me.
In The German Ideology, Marx and Engels wrote:
We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.
I won't say that you're a tankie, lol, but you're in agreement with the MLs. Following Marx and Engels, communism is the process of curing the disease.
It is often said that communism is the end goal. In a way, this is true. But we need to look a bit further and apply himat to fully understand the position. According to himat, all relations/processes are internally contradictory (himat still complies with formal logic).
Capitalism is a class society, involving a contradictory relation between bourgeois and proletariat. One cannot exist without the other but their interests are opposed. They must fight, just as slaves fought masters and serfs fought lords. Humans arrive at capitalism when they resolve the contradiction between slave/master and serf/lord. (This is very reductive example, as there are many classes in every epoch of class society.)
Humans will arrive at communism when they resolve the contradictions of capitalism. Rosa Luxemburg once said, 'socialism or barbarism', roughly meaning we either head towards communism or we let the liberals/fascists continue their barbarity. (When MLs say, 'liberals', they mean all those in favour of capitalism, as liberalism is the ideology of capitalism; and they become fascists to protect capitalism against revolution.) Now we can add a third, 'or planetary collapse'. We either head towards communism or decide how quickly to destroy the climate. There's no option where it isn't destroyed unless we head towards communism.
But, according to himat, communism isn't the final stage of human development. Because contradiction is in everything. And the struggle between the opposites within those contradictory relations drive change. We're just unable to see exactly what contradictions will arise once we get past capitalism and abolish classes.
I think you might already see things in a similar way, as you identify the germ of the existing system in the Roman system.
And this takes us to e.g. the USSR. I'll try to be brief. It's not that MLs/tankies support the USSR. I'm not even sure what that means as the only kind of support that counts is material support. Although material support can be ideological, there's no USSR in existence to which to offer any support. It dissolved several decades ago. The only thing left is critical analysis of what it was, how it worked, and why it ultimately failed.
Following such an analysis, the evidence takes us to whatever conclusions it takes us. Looking at that evidence to fully understand the USSR, it's clear that it was not what the anti-communist narrative says it was. If this is a more favourable view than we've been taught we're allowed to have, then someone is lying and propagandising and we must ask, why?
We can get into more details about these subjects if you wish, although I may ask others to chip in depending on what you ask. But if you are here in good faith, which seems to be the case, please keep asking questions.
you're not going to get an answer because people don't self identify as a tankie - it's a pejorative term. you should ask for the opinion of modern marxist-lenninists and you'll get plenty of explanation. like most political persuasions it's not the ideology that is flawed it's the execution.
Fair enough, a pejorative term for what exactly though? The most nuanced answer I've gotten is from a proponent of communism who pointed at the authoritarian bent to it... Which seems super weird to me.
The way I see it, a bureaucracy has more leeway in allocating goods the higher up you go, which is very literal administrative capitol - it's totally in conflict with the core concept of Marx, which is a person getting the fruits of their own labor, and no one getting to milk others (which is really the only way to get much inequality)
I'm a lot more critical of lennonists. While on the surface it imitates capitalism's ability to optimize production (and with a more aligned goal, minimizing scarcity instead of maximizing the supply-demand equation), it also reintroduces the alignment problem. As you scale up, individual action and ideological beliefs become blips in the data, and the super organism created through humans arranged in the structure.
Individuals have a perverse incentive to maximize their own authority, the number of people under them, and the scale of their operations - by doing that they appear more meritocratous and are more likely to move up the hierarchy. Eventually someone gets the idea to fudge the numbers, and since the metrics are too complex to spot this in a spreadsheet, the most widely selected for skill to move up the ladder is to distort (or spin) the numbers so an individual appears to be serving a greater need than what actually exists.
Lennon's theory is great, the more centralized the distribution, the greater the potential for optimization - but it ignores the emergent properties that appear when humans form an entity too complex for individual humans to grasp the full picture. You can reign in the worst excesses through watchdogs and harsh punishments, but ultimately that just becomes another layer for power to concentrate. You can keep layering and slow down the rot, but it's a fundamental alignment problem - either you purposely concentrate the power in a person or group and regress to autocracy, or you constantly keep adding layers of checks and balances (which eats away at the efficiency gains)
So I see a fundamental contradiction here, which is why I can get behind techno-communism with intelligent agents running the show, or I can get behind decentralizing the system and creating something more anarchistic (or ideally, both), but Lennon always seemed to me to be a smart architect given a problem with a scale and an urgency beyond his abilities
Or am I missing something fundamental?
I can't edit in the app I'm testing out, but I'll add a qualifier after hearing the pejorative connotations (I literally first heard the word last week and am looking for context)
I'd love to hear the take on the definition of the term tankies by someone who believes others would push the term on them
I'd say the most complete answer you can have from one of the biggest names in the people who are being called "tankie" is this video by well-respected youtuber Hakim :
Totally agree. Edgy Russian conquest apologists is far more apt. I hate the modern use of the term “tankie.” “Tankies” were at least communist. Had some ideas and principles. Neither Russia nor China has communist core economic systems.
It shouldn't be used for anything more than stalin apologists, yeah.
