You're viewing a single thread.
Exclusive spaces for women and minorities while requiring male spaces to accept women and minorities. Like women or black only colleges and associations.
Sorry fellow white dudes, we still have so many comparative advantages and there is too much systemic racism and misogyny left to address before a white or men only club is in any way comparable.
I agree in regards to whites only spaces, but men's only spaces have apolitical reasons to exist (just as not all of the reasons for women's only spaces to exist are political.) The experience of being male is just different and sometimes some people just need space to discuss.
We aren't talking about men's support groups for victims of violence, or things of that nature.
This actually is still helpful for us white dudes, if you meet another white guy that gets pissy about exclusive spaces you know that person isn’t worth talking to anymore!
Reverse discrimination is not an answer to the issue of discrimination - it is discrimination in itself.
Excluding any group of people is not only wrong in itself, but likely to drive a negative response from the people excluded, likely fueling movements against it - and against equality activists at large. You'll be seen as hypocrites at best, and along with you everyone who just genuinely wishes for people to become fully equal.
This is not the way.
Reverse discrimination isn't a thing. It is a good sign that the person using the term is a moron because as you noted, discrimination is just discrimination.
But minorities and women having their own spaces isn't discrimination. Women's sports leagues isn't discrimination. It is a response to being discriminated against for decades or centuries. So are black colleges, which were a response to being excluded from most universities. They exist because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to do those things because of the actual discrimination. It simply isn't the same thing at all because of the larger context.
On a side note, the whole transphobic 'no trans women in women's sports' bullshit is discrimination because it further excludes an even smaller portion of the population that is discriminated against even more than women.
It isn't an "answer" to anything, it is necessary for a feeling of safety and togetherness in certain vulnerable people at certain times. You must get past the fact that you weren't invited and accept that this is good for some of us. Give in a little, and take in so much more in the long run
Hard to be an ally when you're excluded. Hard to even want to be an ally when you're told you're part of the problem.
Im a guy. Im excluded from mothers groups. Is that really a bad thing when I can’t offer the group anything as Im not a mother?
I think you as a father could probably learn a lot from mothers, so yeah it's kind of fucked up to be excluded.
I have no kids. If the purpose of the mother’s group is for mothers to share their problems then I have nothing to offer.
Why assume you have something to offer them when the opposite is likely truer.
I don’t think I have anything to offer which is why me not being included is fine. That’s the whole point.
Idk if even they have understood the position they're taking.
Their "Why should I be barred from taking advantage of anything that might benefit me?"
vs
Your "I am have nothing to give and no way to meaningfully help, so I'll stay out."
Is very telling.
It's terribly easy to be an ally when you're excluded. Helping people to have the space and community they need can be an incredible act of allyship, even (perhaps especially) when that space and community is not also for you.
You're not excluded, you're just not included. You're not meant to be part of everything in society, that doesn't make you an enemy. Try getting over it and being an ally regardless
I'm doing my thing and preparing, Ive got a nice little circle around me. Unfortunately a lot of people are hung up on identity politics instead of actually organizing and putting in work.
I'm an accomplice, not an ally. Too bad too many people are stuck on themselves to figure it out.
No, that is a double-standard, it’s just a double-standard you’re arguing is justified.
it would be more of a double standard if the two groups were on equal footing, but they're not.
The definition of a double standard is that it's unjust. At least, in common English.
Mmmmm…meta-injustice…(drool)
Add to this the previously white fictional characters being replaced with actors of color and I couldn't care less. The market will decide if it was a good idea with ratings. Sometimes it's a smashing success other times a complete disaster.
I remember seeing some neckbeard-ass post on Reddit when the live-action Little Mermaid trailer came out, saying how it wouldn't make sense for somebody living in that region of the ocean to have dark skin because of the longitude and depth of the water, etc...
Like... You're really trying to argue the scientific accuracy of... [checks notes] ... a fucking MERMAID? Spare everybody the mental gymnastics and just say you don't like black people.
My only argument against that stuff is make a whole new character or your just pandering disingenuously.
But for the most part I agree.
Asking as a brown person, can you tell me what advantages white people are receiving that I'm not?
I scanned your comments and you're not totally off your rocker, so I'll not be as big of an ass as I usual am.
Your experience is an anecdote. The plural of anecdote is not "data".
The data shows that minorities are unfairly targeted by police. Arrested more, released more as innocent. Prosecuted more for the same rate of incidence.
The data shows that having an "ethnic" name gets fewer responses to an identical resume.
The data shows that for literal decades, some would say still, minorities couldn't get home loans in good areas with good schools.
What benefit do white people have? I have never, literally not once, thought or cared about my race. My privilege is getting to live without noticing my race in any meaningful context. That's why white people have to be "woken". We're comfortably asleep in our bubble, from birth.
If you don't see it, great! But that might say less about reality, and more about your ability to perceive it.
What benefit do white people have? I have never, literally not once, thought or cared about my race. My privilege is getting to live without noticing my race in any meaningful context. That's why white people have to be "woken". We're comfortably asleep in our bubble, from birth.
Yeah, I got to do all that too. None of it required some special place for minorities and women to go to. All it required was people not talking about race every 5 seconds. What even is this hypothetical safe space for women and minorities that white people would theoretically be upset about anyway?
And yes, I find it far easier and more effective to change my perception of reality than try to make reality conform to my emotional state.
I think people who want to be offended will find something to take offense over and people who want to play victim will find something to claim persecution over. And I think when everyone shouts about how racist and unfair everything is all the time, it detracts from the most heinous actionable items.
I always hate talking in vague generalities. I like specific events, and specific courses of action.
It's all a sliding scale of course. It's the age old push and pull off nature vs nurture; being a product of the environment that created you and free will.
I think it's telling that white people on the left are more concerned with systemic racism than minorities in general are.
Do you think it's ok to have a women's only space for women who have been raped by a man and are scared and scarred?
Also I disagree that minorities are less concerned about systemic racism, as everything I've learned about it has come from minorities. Maybe white people are louder about it, but duh, there's more of them.
Actually no, I don't think women's only spaces for rape are necessarily beneficial, because I'll point to the stupid man vs bear argument.
That's the same thinking that people use to keep trans people out of specific bathrooms. Fear of some small few despicable criminal elements shouldn't be used as an excuse to sow fear against entire swathes of population.
A women who has been raped shouldn't be coached into believing that all men are rapists and should be assumed to be rapists. Additionally, allowing men in would serve to destigmatize the concept of male rape. Where are men who have been sexually assaulted supposed to go?
As for the minorities being less interested, I was simply going off some polling numbers I saw during the election. I forget which stats specifically but I remember seeing some numbers that struck me as counterintuitive. Think it was something like Hispanics here actually being in favor of stronger border control and whatnot.
There are people out there that would not hire you based on the only thing I know about you. I've met enough of them that I have to assume there are more.
That doesn't make it systemic. It means there are morons out there, and some of them own businesses.
enough of them and it becomes systemic
Someone asked what the privilege was, and I told them one. Nobody said anything about systemic.
Tbc there are systemic injustices, just not mentioned here lol
I don't know your situation, but I certainly can tell you that at least in the Western Hemisphere, in the aggregate descendants of indigenous people and slaves are overcoming systemic injustice that robbed their ancestors of economic advantages, dignity, and liberty, and often introduced intergenerational trauma as well. And I don't mean, like, in the past, redlining for example was legal within our parents lifetime and related forms of discrimination are still practiced today.
I can tell cops to fuck themselves with zero fear of reprisal because I look and sound wealthy enough to sue.
edit: Statistically speaking as a white guy im ~50% less likely to be shot by police.
If a Black man dies, he is more likely to have been shot by a cop compared to a white man, if a white guy has an interaction with a cop he is ≈30% more likely to be shot, the real white privilege is going years without interacting with a cop.
I can talk back to the police in a non-violent setting without getting shot.
As a white male, there is zero chance of deing discriminated against when applying for 95% of jobs.
I can walk into most buildings without being questioned. Nobody has ever told me that I don't belong somewhere because of who I am.
While whites that live in poverty can face some discrimination compared to middle class whites, $100 in clothing is enough to fit in most public spaces without drawing any attention. Minorities can't do that.
Those are the most obvious things, but they also mean that my economic and social standing basically went up my entire life by just being polite and working. That builds on itself, and while not all white men are successful. Being white isn't one of their hurdles.
All of those things are advantages compared to people who are not white males.
Well so far I haven't been shot by any cops that I've interacted with, have not been discriminated against in employment, nor been questioned as to my presence in any building. But if you want to feel guilty, go ahead, it's a free country. My dad came to this country with $6 in his pocket and did quite well.
Almost sounds insulting though, kinda smacks of telling minorities who succeed "oh, you did so good despite your obvious disadvantages. " Like that scene from Star Trek (2009) with the Vulcans giving Spock shit for having a human mother.
So because you have not experienced those things, no one else of color has? No.
As a white male I know I have privilege and use it to help those that don't. When I see someone of color being shit on by people in power, like cops, or other people who think they're above them, I step up in and say something at minimum.
Doesn't sound that different to me from "As a white male I know I'm better. "
I know I'm judged as better by others, but I don't believe that shit for a second. I know I'm not better than anyone else just for being white.
You're free to feel as you please maybe once you're shot at you'll understand what others go through.
I mean if you want me to admit our police and criminal justice system are in need of reform, I agree. I don't think it needs to be tackled from a race angle. I think fixing the broader problems with the system will take care of the race concerns.
Daniel Shaver was white. Police training is completely anti public by design. Police are poorly educated on the law. Police are corrupt and cover for each other. Police, judges, and prosecutors are way too cozy with each other. Qualified Immunity is a nightmare.
Solve that crap first then let's see how bad the system racism remains.
Dude there are police officers in the kkk, that feel anyone not white deserves abuse. Look at the stats. I'm not discussing this anymore since you keep changing the topic.
You're not discussing it further because you can't see further than your nose. I specified specific issues problematic with policing, which is the specific area you brought up to highlight systemic racism. I'm trying to point out you're keen on fixing symptoms, and I'm concerned with eradicating the root cancer.
What data proves me wrong?
Well so far I haven't been shot by any cops that I've interacted with
maybe you're just not brown enough ! fat chance
K
If you don't let white men have a space at the table they'll make their own and they won't let anyone else sit with them, just saying.
We already do, and have done, for centuries.
Sure that's fair I'd argue a classist view is more suitable than a gendered one. Regardless, I'm talking more about within progressive circles. If you want the support of people not in your specific circumstances or 'group,' you need to support them in facing their issues. Some of the issues young men are facing are loneliness, feelings of worthlessness (not being able to provide) and social exclusion. You may personally think these are not issues, but young men very much do. By not supporting them in their causes you make it much harder to convince them to support you in yours. I think a suitable analogy can be found in the LGBT community. Gay people who aren't trans support trans people and their issues while trans people who aren't gay support gay people and their issues. The unity between these groups strengthens the overall movement.
It's a messaging program. Liberals want to provide mental health care and improve the minimum wage. That directly addresses what those young men need.
Well.. are they? Have they been? If not then there is still a need for it in progressive spaces
A need for what though? I guess I just don't know what the ask is here.
A recognition that people are lonely? That it's hard to provide for people? That message seems pretty alive in leftist spaces, no? Hating capitalism, building community, it's kind of their thing.
This is why I think it's a messaging problem. I think the solution is there, and it's just not packaged up for these people in a simple to understand way.
Well not saying the kinda stuff said at the start of the comment chain would be a good start.
Men aren't stupid and don't need to be babied. They're quite capable of understanding that not everything is about them and they're not always invited.
Just FYI the LGBT+ community isn’t as unified as you might think. A ton of older gay men are sexist or transphobic in my experience.