Says “I’m a libertarian but I’m not one of those crazy ones”.
My followup question is usually what’s your opinion on seatbelt laws and drivers licenses.
Both are necessary, there's an argument to strengthen the latter, and neither violate the NAP. I'm not one of those crazy ones 😁
violate the NAP
not one of those crazy ones
These two statements contradict each other.
The NAP is a substitute for laws for "libertarians" who can't tolerate the thought of other people actually being free.
The entire point is to have something that proactively justifies the forcible imposition of your will upon others. So the instant that somebody does something of which you disapprove, you can decree, by whatever rationale might serve, that it's a violation of the NAP, so you're now entirely justified in shooting them.
My followup question is usually what’s your opinion on seatbelt laws and drivers licenses.
Seatbelt laws would really only make sense if their purpose was to protect others from harm, but, as far as I've been able to think, this would only make sense in 2 scenarios:
- You are in a car with other passengers. In a crash, one passenger not wearing a seatbelt could end up harming the other passengers in the vehicle simply by their limp body flying around, and impacting the other passengers. This does raise the point, however, that the other passengers could simply refuse to occupy the vehicle with that individual, or the driver could bar them from that vehicle. If all occupants are able to give consent to the situation, then there should be no issue under the law.
- You have a child and you are neglecting that child's safety by not restraining them with a proper seatbelt.
As for driver's licenses, that's actually a rather complicated issue.
EDIT 1: As pointed out in this post, there is a third case that I hadn't originally considered in that, in a crash, one's limp, and unrestrained corpse could fly through the windshield and end up causing damage to someone else's property, or bodily harm to another.
Libertarianism isn’t a monolithic ideology, and opinions vary widely among libertarians. Furthermore, one who identifies as libertarian doesn’t inherently reject all utilitarian or communitarian values. Some may argue against seatbelt laws and drivers’ licenses on the basis of personal freedom and responsibility, while others might see the value in certain regulations that protect public safety. What unites libertarians is a belief in limiting government intervention to essential functions, but defining those ‘essential functions’ can differ greatly among individuals within the libertarian community. Libertarians often share common ground with leftists on social values, differing significantly from mainstream Republican politicians.
Drivers licenses protect folks from each other, not only do we need them we need to be more selective about who gets them
Seat belts protect you, so it should be your choice. If we had socialized healthcare, not wearing a seatbelt is a greater social cost, and then I would be ok with enforcing it. However, since we don’t have real healthcare in America and it’s all out of pocket, I don’t think we should enforce seat belt laws here. It’s hypocritical.
Someone without a seat belt becomes a 185 lb projectile in an accident.
I say this in the most cordial and respectful manner possible: Wear your fucking seatbelt, you blithering ape.
If this is what a fake libertarian is, there's no such thing as a real one. This is every single libertarian I've ever conversed with.
You need to find yourself some Left-Libertarians.
You're usually looking for some type of Georgists or some flavor of small-scale Social/Communist Anarchy. Most of them are way more able to grok the concepts of things like "natural monopolies" or "Tragedy of the Commons" and other fun market failure states. They tend to focus more on the existence of the market itself as a tool for creating competition that drives innovation and efficiency while giving less lip service to the idea that just because you accumulated a bunch of capital from an idea that's its a good idea.
If I scam a bunch of people, I've gathered a bunch of capital, but that doesn't mean I've actually produced anything of value for anyone. If I refined chemicals in my house and dumped all the waste in my neighbor's pool, I'm not actually competing in an even market, because I've burdened my neighbor with the cost of waste remediation while I get to keep all the profit.
You’re usually looking for some type of Georgists
Georgism is actually a very interesting political philosophy. I hadn't heard of it before you mentioned it in your comment. Thank you for sharing!
“natural monopolies” or “Tragedy of the Commons”
These are, indeed, two very important, and critical issues. When one is advocating for libertarianism, capitalism, and the like, they mustn't be ignored.
If I refined chemicals in my house and dumped all the waste in my neighbor’s pool, I’m not actually competing in an even market, because I’ve burdened my neighbor with the cost of waste remediation while I get to keep all the profit.
This point doesn't actually hold much, if any, ground, as it is fundamentally at odds with the philosophy of libertariansim. Libertarianism is about equal freedom of the individual, yes, but that does not grant one the right to burden other's with un-consented cost.
This means you have never interacted with a libertarian then, just a ashamed conservative/republican wanting to be labeled something else.
Everyone knows the True Libertarians hang out in Scotland. With the True Scotts.
When I considered myself libertarian, I was not a fan of police brutality, pro LGBTQ rights, more open border, and legalized drugs. I still hold all of those views but have gotten a lot more to the left from am economics standpoint. A lot of that is die to my econ degree.
That said, post 2016 I definitely noticed a ton of faux libertarians who were very defensive of Trump. If you voted for Trump, I don't think you can consider yourself libertarian. I think I recall hearing that the whacko New Hampshire libertarians basically took over the party. Those guys are a bunch of racist fascists.
If you voted for Trump, I don’t think you can consider yourself libertarian.
I wouldn't go so far as to draw that line at voting, as one could certainly be voting strategically -- it's possible that they don't agree with many, if any, of Trump's policies, but they were of the belief that voting for Trump would push policy in a direction that would be in their interest -- this is, of course, a symptom of FPTP, and it could be possibly solved with a ranked ballot. That being said, I do completely agree that if one is a vehement supporter of Trump, and his policies in a similar fassion to the usual MAGA group, then they cannot call themselves a libertarian in good concience -- there are many policies of, and actions by Trump that are very un-libertarian.
Generally I lean libertarian in terms of pure individual choice. Worship no gods or a million, be single or marry 20 people at once, put whatever substance you want in your own body, kneel for the flag or shed a tear, yes I will use your pronouns.
Every man a king, that's my philosophy.
The rest of the stuff yeah. I want food stamp programs, I want a secular neutral state, I want antidiscrimination laws, I dont support a company dumping pollution on us.
I want antidiscrimination laws
For the sake of clarity, what do you specifically mean by this?
I dont support a company dumping pollution on us.
This is actually not a libertarian belief. It is of the libertarian philosophy that one cannot impose a cost on others without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.
How many have you talked to? I'm guessing the root cause is your sample size is too small.
I can confirm the same.
Yeah, OP's argument is founded on a logical fallacy -- it is called a Faulty Generalization.
I been saying it for years. Cut a self-identified libertarian and you will find a Republican who groked on that all the cute girls he is interested in aren't going to date him unless he lies about what he believes.
Here is some advice: if you are ashamed about what you believe consider changing it.
Not a cute girl, but a rather plain woman so I get the memos, and generally we're not a big fan of libertarians either. There are some outliers but yeah, the ruse was not super effective.
Strange that women would be against a group of people who
- Want to hand over all reproductive control over your body to the state legislation.
- Want to strip away all anti-discrimination protections.
- Hope to pull away all social support. Including WIC.
- Remove school funding
Are you telling me you are not looking forward to the era where you have to stay married to a man who beats you because if you leave or even call the cops it will mean utter ruin for you and your children? Children who won't be able to get free schooling or even discounted food. And of course your employer will be able to sexually harass you as much as they would like since it isn't technically a violation of the NAP but even if it were you won't report him because you really need this job. Why wouldn't women like to return to the 1850s?
generally we’re not a big fan of libertarians either
Why? What is so objectionable about resisting authoritarian oppression? What is so objectionable about the belief that we should maximise, to the best of our ability, the freedoms of all individuals?
You can't generalize this argument to all libertarians. This argument is founded upon a faulty generalization.
Republican * Coward = Libertarian
As a self diagnosed math major: Republican is already a product of coward so shouldn't it be more like Republican + Shame = Libertarian?
That would work, because Republicans lack shame and Libertarians are Republicans that know that their beliefs are shameful.
Libertarians are Republicans that know that their beliefs are shameful.
I think that you have a misunderstanding of what libertarianism is.
Would you mind explaining this statement? I'm especially curious as to why you are referring to libertarians as cowards.
Don't move unless you want to, @[email protected] !
i expected an XKCD
my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
No, real libertarian takes over a town in New Hampshire only to get that town taken over by feral bears (the animal, not hairy gay men, although that would be fun too.)
https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project
That's one of my favorite stories ever. I think I laughed the entire time when I first read that article. Fucking morons.
If this was made into a movie it'll be dismissed as completely unrealistic.
Reality is absurd sometimes.
Crazy republican that likes weed.
For the sake of clarity, your referring to a fake-libertarian as OP described, correct?
Real libertarians would stand there with their hands in their pockets watching a toddler drown in a duck pond because the parents have no right to demand their labour.
What you're describing is something called "Duty to Rescue". It has serious implications if enacted, and should not be taken lightly.
is this satire or...?
because i actually noticed a few specific people (namely us-citizens) associating libertarianism with uncontrolled market instead of the humanitarian background of the enlightenmentThe entire concept is "I don't have to and you can't make me!".
That's it, that's all; a complete renunciation of social obligation. Nobody is required to do anything for anybody else, and the very idea is offensive.
Regulation is tyranny, taxation is theft, fuck you, pay me.
Your baby is starving to death in the street? Better hope someone decides to randomly donate to a charity or something, because I don't have to give a shit about anyone in the world but myself. But its okay, I'm a good person because I'm not touching you!
At least toddlers grow out of it.
Randroid scum the lot of them; a bunch of edgelord ex-teenage anarchists who realised they like money and want laws to protect it, without any of that inconvenient and expensive functioning-society stuff getting in the way of their selfishness.
Can we get a real libratarian starter pack? What's that look like?
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department
here is a teaser
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
Thank you for that. Glad I asked.
This article is an example of why there exists the idea of a Nightwatchman State.
Real libertarianism looks more like anarchism. There's no strong central body (neither government or corporation), community helps each other, total personal liberty, etc. Political anarchism is generally "lib-left" on a political compass while classical libertarianism is "lib-right".
As a tangent, I very much dislike the ambiguous words we chose for the political compass, they have usage that could indicate so many different things on their own. For example, if I saw someone referring to republicans as "lib-right", I'd say no shit because both parties in the US are liberal political parties.
There’s no strong central body (neither government or corporation)
Libertarianism is not opposed to the existance of a government -- in fact, libertarianism is founded upon the idea that a government is necessary.
It depends on who you ask. 10 years ago, it was mostly classical liberals that defected from the Republicans after the GOP started focusing their messaging on rallying evangelicals. Within the last couple election cycles, which IIRC is right around when they got close to having good enough poll numbers to get in a debate, the loudest group in it became ANCAPs who fight with each other about who's actually extreme enough to earn the libertarian title.
TL;DR: hippies. (At least for left-libertarians.)
I appreciate you guys trying to make me feel at home here by making it seem like reddit. I was starting to worry nobody was going to tell me what I believe.
There seems to be a basic misunderstanding among both the targeted parties and the entertained parties in many posts like these.
Even when this particular post specifies "fake libertarian" in their simplistic collage of observations, many readers end up understanding it as "this is what OP and the upvoters think libertarians are like", and then it's that premise they either agree or disagree with.
It should be said thst if you're a libertarian that is genuinely liberal without the "protect sensitive people through authoritarian means"-mindset, then you're a much different type than the cop-loving "liberty is for white christian land owners"-type this meme is about.
Yup. This comment section is a dumpster fire full of used condoms worthy of those spamming bots of reddit. They are just attacking people for their believes. And not even good ones, just more american culture war bullshit.
It's not even for their beliefs: it's for what they claim people believe. Don't get me wrong, I cringe when I see a gadsden flag next to a blue lives matter flag, but that's not me and it's not the people I've met.
Brother eye is watching.
It's funny, because I watched it play out in real time on Reddit.
It all changed with the Tea Party. Not at first - a fact that the statists on both sides of the aisle want to bury is that the first couple of Tea Party protests were genuinely libertarian, and were in fact against the Bush administration.
But when Obama was elected, the Republicans moved to co-opt the Tea Party, and succeeded, and both they and the statists on the left were then more than happy to pretend that it was always a Republican thing, since as much as they might differ on the details, they both agree that the idea of being free of government entirely cannot be allowed to prosper.
And almost immediately, r/libertarian went to complete shit, as it was taken over by overt authoritarians who just want to eliminate all of the bits of the government they don't like - like gun laws and public assistance of any form - so the rest of the government can then focus entirely on punishing people for being too liberal or too brown or too smart, and they themselves can be free to just shoot anyone they want.
It took me a while to figure out that that change wasn't limited to just Reddit - that libertarianism as a whole had been co-opted by those violently authoritarian shitstains.
And it's certainly not a coincidence that the net result of that is that there's no longer an umbrella term in the US for people who just want people to be more free, and "libertarianism" has become just another variety of authoritarianism.
It all changed with the Tea Party. Not at first - a fact that the statists on both sides of the aisle want to bury is that the first couple of Tea Party protests were genuinely libertarian, and were in fact against the Bush administration.
Its important to keep restating these histories. Its easy to think of the past as monolithic, but instances like these are a reminder that its actually a tapestry of individual threads, none of which were predetermined at the outset.
This is why things like the modern tanky movement concern me. Effectively, they are the same people who pre-supposed the modern neofacist movement: young edgelords and older dumb edgelords who never matured in their world view. Movements like this are easily coopted towards broader political goals by people who understand how to operate them far better than their originators. The Koch brothers looked at the tea party and went full youmadethis.meme on it.
that libertarianism as a whole had been co-opted by those violently authoritarian shitstains.
I'm of the belief that the libertarian philosophy must be defended. We cannot roll over and let it be twisted and contorted to the wills of another. The same goes for the Gadsden Flag.
As a dyed in the wool true Libertarian I have no love for the grousers. Do what you want w/o stepping on another persons rights. Its that simple.
Do what you want w/o stepping on another persons rights.
That's not a libertarian ideal, that's just being a normal person. Though I can see, in this political climate, why a libertarian would want to express it. Libertarianism comes more into play when the topic is how we as a society decide what to do in order to preserve those other persons' rights and what we should do to someone who violates those rights. It also comes heavily into play when discussing what those rights actually are and where they apply.
There are protect the people from the corporations type libertarians and the protect the corporations from the government type libertarians. Guess which kind the GOP like?
A true libertarian would be both. Although it depends on exactly what you mean by "protect the corporations from the government".
I've never seen a libertarian who thinks drugs and prostitution should be illegal.
Mfw I vote for a 3rd party candidate who aligns with many of my ideals and both a Democrat and a Republican break down my doors screaming that I wasted my vote and should vote (person) because its (not the other person) even though I don't agree with either shitheads policies or agendas.
Then they're gonna complain about how the system is shit.
Literally just vote third parties and kick those dinosaurs out of congress
Yea I have lately found myself very frustrated with liberals, and politics as a whole lately. I browse both right and left stuff online and they each mirror eachothers sentiments like sports team fandoms. The liberals just hold the dnc party line in the name of fighting fascism cause most of them have done extremely well in the current political and economic climate, whether they admit it or not, capitalism and american democracy has suited them just fine and they don't wanna release the pearls just yet. The right is just shit, tho there are some lines of logic from conservatives I don't outright dismiss, but they're mostly just ignorant assholes. 🤷 I voted Biden, I will again, but the whole wasted vote shit is just laughable tbh. Give me something good, and I'll pick it.
It's your vote, so you vote for who you want to. I always will no matter what anybody says.
People have this dumbass mindset that your vote "doesn't count" if you vote for somebody who doesn't end up winning. So they vote like sheep for who they are "supposed to" vote for.
Every election has losers, and your vote still counts just as much no matter who you vote for so vote for who you want.
Unfortunately this is a symptom of FPTP. One is generally ill-advised to vote for exaclty who they believe in in such a system, and instead is advised to vote strategically. A rank ballot hypothetically would solve this issue.
Immediately looks for justifications when there's an incident of police brutality
It's not immediately clear to me what you are implying with this statement. Is it that you think that any justification of the use of force by the police is un-libertarian, is it that you think it is un-libertarian to question an official verdict of "police brutality", or something else?
Pro-death penalty
This is a difficult statement to tackle. I would argue that, at the very least, it is not as cut and dry as you appear to be making it out to be. There could certainly be arguments both for, and against capital punishment from a libertarian perspective. This being said, a libertarian would generally seek to minimize the power, and authority of the state, and fully recognize its fallibility. Being cognizant of the state's fallibility, I would argue, is mutually exclusive with the death penalty -- if the state wrongfully imprisons someone, there is no turning back, in the case of newly found evidence exonerating the individual, should they be killed.
Has both of these flags, doesn't notice the contradiction between them
I tried to do some research on the "Blue Lives Matter"/"Thin Blue Line" flag(s), and the Blue Lives Matter movement, but, I must say, it is very difficult to find any unified information, vision, or platform for it -- it's hard to find evidence of the idea that the Blue Lives Matter flag is mutually exclusive to the Gadsden Flag (which is a symbol of libertarianism). I am, of course, not naive to the fact that a very specific faction of people enjoys sporting that symbol, but I must be careful in laying any judgement, as I am frequently annoyed when I come across misappropriations of the Gadsden Flag, which, in my opinion, is one of the best symbols of libertarianism that exists. I would, at the very least, say that I don't believe that libertarianism is opposed to law public enforcement.
Aside: If you have any good resources that outline the actual symbolism represented by the flag, then I would really appreciate it if you could share it so that I might try to ameliorate my understanding.
Protesting banned books, voter roll purges, anti-protest laws, Assange, Snowden, etc.Complaining about cancel cultureProtesting banned books
If books are banned by law, this a violation of freedom of speech, so supporting that would indeed be non-libertarian.
voter roll purges
Would you mind specifying what you mean by this? I'm not familiar with it.
anti-protest laws
Again, this is a violation of freedom of speech, as well as freedom of assembly, freedom of association, etc. so supporting it would, indeed, be non-libertarian.
Assange, Snowden
What specifically about them are you referring to? Are you talking about their leaking of state-classified information, their individual principles, or something else?
In favor of anti-trans bathroom laws
Any law which would prevent a private establishment from setting its own such rules would, indeed, be non-libertarian.
Believes drugs and prostitution should remain illegal
Any laws that restrict the freedoms of the individual, if those freedoms do not infringe on those of others, is, indeed, non-libertarian.
"I am a libertarian, I just think the left has gone too far recently and needs to be pushed back against!"
I don't understand what you are implying here. There are plenty of non-libertarian things that the "modern left" political faction supports.
Only actual libertarian principles are being pro-2A and hating the IRS
While, yes, supporting the 2A falls in line with libertarian principles, I'm not convinced that abolishing the IRS would be. The IRS's purpose is to collect taxes. A libertarian doesn't necessarily have to be completely opposed to taxation, and if there exists taxes, then you need state agency to collect them -- of course, a libertarian would certainly seek to minimize taxation to the greatest extent feasible.
When people don't have to follow ideologies by heart:
true. but this is clearly auth right larping as libertarian
In the context of the comments here, no one really wants to give any libertarians the benefit of the doubt huh? Like maybe there are some folks out there who have a well thought out perspective and aren't a caricature you learned about from memes.
I'm not libertarian, I'm just tired of the brain dead political takes you can find on the internet.
Maybe I should quit the internet.
I often say that the only thing more embarrassing than being a Libertarian is not growing out of it
I've been somewhere in the big Democrat-anarchist-libertarian nexus since I was a teenager. I've definitely noticed that negative depictions of libertarianism are 90% based on the "if you don't want something done by the state, you must not want it done at all" fallacy. The core concept people don't get is that a state is a critical point of institutional failure, and libertarianism/anarchism of all different flavors mostly just advocate non-coercive means to accomplish the things a state does that we still do want. Honestly, it's the same basic concept of centralization vs. decentralization by which Reddit failed and Lemmy offers a better alternative - the state centralizes coercive power susceptible to abuse, which is a fact of our daily lives (read: lobbying).
People brush right past these core concepts and try to make it about single-issue things like guns, abortion, etc. - they have no idea what they're talking about. The problem here is all about what methods of social organization are ideal, and how the power of the state can be abused for private gain.
I like this take, I don't agree entirely with it, but I totally get the energy here, thank you for sharing kind of made me lol.
Anyone on the internet for over 15 minutes since 1996 knows what libertarians are about.
For the sake of clarity, what do you mean by this?
yeah I saw the image and thought "... who exactly is this for?."
I'm not certain the creator has much but time on their hands. I wonder how individuals who consume this content actually behave outside of the internet.
I'm wouldn't be surprised that they can only regurgitate what they have seen in memes and read in their echo chambers, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt too. I don't go out and ask "What memes do you lol to?" when I meet folks, so I'd never know.
