You're viewing a single thread.
Stop wasting your vote with the duopoly; voting out of fear should not be the norm.
Do not give in to the fearmongering that the establishment and the politicians push on the people every four years.
Our long-term goal should be to continue to build up grassroots movements for the working class; this won't happen in a day.
Our long-term goal should be to continue to build up grassroots movements for the working class; this won’t happen in a day.
Cool, now which is easier to build movements under, a fascist regime, or a moderate milquetoast capitalist regime?
Will throwing your vote away in protest of 'the duopoly' do anything, in this election, to change that or meaningfully contribute to a grassroots movement for the working class?
We have a thousand tools at our disposal. Voting is one - an important one. Tools should not be misused, but each one used in its own unique way to maximize its effect on your goals.
Cool, now which is easier to build movements under, a fascist regime, or a moderate milquetoast capitalist regime?
Let's be real here, the kind of person ranting on the internet about "ThE DuOpOlY" is not actually interested in building anything at all. They just like to stomp their feet, and shout "no fair!" over and over again like the petculant children they are, while the grownups are busy trying to prevent the country from descending into fascism.
Not the same person, but I carry similar sentiments. I helped form the second largest tech union in North America. What are you doing to support the working working class and build alternatives to capital? Tossing support at the nearest person in fear doesn't prevent fascism.
To use your example, here are the options:
- today we can definitely get a Union that covers some tech workers but not all of them.
Or
- today we can try to get a Union for all tech workers, but it’s a long shot. And if we lose, the consequences are that we don’t get another union vote for 4 years and during that time, the tech companies get to run rampant with negative propaganda about unions, making the challenge even harder next time.
Which would you choose, second largest tech union guy?
False dichotomy. The stakes of the second version are the same for the first regardless of union size. There never has been and never will be a guaranteed union campaign until we overthrow capitalism.
Voting against the fascist candidate abso-fucking-lutely prevents fascism. This is an extremely simple concept that one would imagine the founder of the second-largest tech union in North America should be able to wrap their mind around.
I think my point has been missed. The fact that there's an openly fascist candidate running for president means that fascism is already here and in power.
They're not in power. But you're helping them get back in power. If people like you decided to get behind the non-fascist, it would be a non-issue, hence the post.
I can name some of them. You probably recognize them.
- Mike Johnson
- Marjorie Greene
- Mitch McConnell
- Jacob Frey
- Leonard Leo
Nowhere did I say I wasn't voting. Voting is the least effective method of change that exists, but it's still a method. I will still be participating because it can lead to minor changes. If you think that defeating fascism can be done by voting once every 4 years however, you will be played.
I'm glad that you participate. Voting is the easiest and most direct method of change.
And yeah, it can be defeated by voting (every 2 years, for primaries too) if you have enough people to join. It's unfortunate that there are enough cynics who don't participate who could make real change if they did.
Every time Trump's judges make another radical ruling, I'm reminded that people stayed home. And now pregnant women aren't safe in red states, just as one example.
it can be defeated by voting
It never has been. Even in France with the left coalition, Macron has been courting the fascist right.
We are currently in a fascist regime; both parties are heavily lobbied by corporations that dictate policy.
People continue to struggle more and more under both parties, while they play political theater to continue to divide us.
Voting outside the two-party system will help establish that people do have standards when voting.
Voting is one - an important one.
Yes, and a good percentage of the populace decides to stay in and not reward the duopoly with their vote.
The problem with this take is that you cannot conversely punish the duopoly by withholding your vote, regardless of whether or not you think they "earned" it. Even if you don't vote, one of them still gets in. The problem is, the people who are going to vote for the significantly worse of the two options are very motivated to vote, and they will do so.
Yeah. Somehow they think that if they don’t vote- no one gets elected. They don’t understand that a decision will be made without their input.
Or they do, and that’s the entire point.
Lord.
The Lord won't help us on this one; we need to be the ones to fight for what we demand.
The civil rights movements happened because people were fed up with the status quo.
There is the right to cast a vote, also a right to protest.
Please don't confuse the two and protest by not voting.
Voting and protesting: to create a better society, people need to be willing to demand more than what the status quo can provide.
Heads up. “Left of Shill Stein” is what most know to be called democrats.
The presidential election year before the Voting Rights Act of 1965 saw relatively high voter turnout. 61.4%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections
People voted in the Democratic Party candidate by a wide margin. 61.1%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_United_States_presidential_election
If we protest, but then don't vote, nothing will change. So voting in records numbers is the answer. Specifically, in our present case, voting for the party that wants to improve things incrementally over fascists.
I see the duopoly as the fascists, though...
Believing in lies doesn't make them true. The Republicans are fascists who believe immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country and that the genes of people of color predispose them to be criminals. Just because Republicans believe it doesn't make it true.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/07/trump-immigrants-crime-00182702
And the Democrats are perpetrating a genocide, sending cops and SWAT after students and people protesting that genocide, not letting them talk at the DNC, and trying to suppress their freedom of speech and assembly. That's also very fascist.
The Democrats are neoliberals. As neoliberals, they are both center-right and institutionalists, so they do stuff like police crack downs on protesters. This is not fascism on its own. Denying a speaking slot to the Uncommitted Movement was a strategic failure, but it is not fascism.
Biden is a Zionist, so on top of sticking to 70 years of US foreign policy of allying with Israel he has been actively complicit in genocide. Zionism is a form of fascism that attempts to manipulate Jews and Christians alike to build a Jewish ethnostate. Not everyone who is a self-described Zionist is inherently bought into the actual ideology. There are plenty of people who want a place for Jewish people to be safe. Zionism is not that, but there have been plenty of people who have been fooled into thinking it is. Biden is not a fascist, but he has given the fascists in Israel nearly everything they wanted. Thankfully Biden has so far refused Israel's request to attack Iran.
Also, thankfully Kamala is running for president, not Biden. Kamala is not a lifelong Zionist. Kamala has said she is willing to defend Israel, but being willing to defend a long standing ally is not the same as letting them do whatever they want. Under Kamala, the Democrats are going to do everything in their power to get a ceasefire deal to end the war and the genocide.
Trump is on record as saying Israel needs to finish what they started. Trump is going to let Israel complete its genocide of the Palestinians. He's going to allow the war to continue indefinitely so Benjamin Netanyahu can stay out of prison, deny Palestinian statehood, and form a greater Israel by conquering as much of the Middle East as possible.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
The Republican Party has been taken over by the fascist MAGA movement, not the Democratic Party. Trump is the fascist, not Kamala. And Trump being elected would be worse for the Palestinians and the Middle East as a whole. So we should strategically vote for Kamala.
Kamala has already said they won't institute an arms embargo, which is basically the one material thing she can do to restrict Israel, and has put all the blame on Iran. Without that on the table and the other rhetoric, she's saying the same thing as Trump but with nicer words, she will allow them to finish the job. Sure she's covering it by saying she'll try for a ceasefire, but so has Biden for months now and that's gone well. The war with Iran she's hinting at is basically Biden's policy and it plays right into Israel's hand. It let's them continue the he genocide, avoid a ceasefire, take more land, keep elections suspended and Bibi in power, and let's us continue to destabilize the Middle East as we have always done. Trump's rhetoric is bloodthirsty, Kamala's is ostensibly more apologetic (except for the most lethal army in the world bit), but in the end, it's the same thing.
I was hopeful Kamala was different than Biden, too, but so far, she has not shown any difference whatsoever. To believe otherwise is naive, it's trusting in the same lie that's been repeated for months and led to nothing. She'd have to say something concrete to change my mind again, like she's replacing Blinken with someone more progressive or she will agree to stop vetoing resolutions against Israel, or something. Just saying you're going to work at a ceasefire without saying how is just running on vibes.
Maybe the real fascists were the friends we made along the way
Please provide examples to justify your claim. I’d like to know more. I’ll give you your first one since it’s everywhere in the headlines nowadays - weapons to Israel.
How is giving your vote to whoever becomes the largest by not voting winning anything? You can do all the other things you mentioned and still make a conscious choice to do the least harm by not voting a demagogue in. It's just one of the many steps you can take as a person wishing to influence the world around you.
Just like eating no meat or less meat. Will it fix everything wrong with farming? No. Does that mean you should just start buying more meat and not eat it, letting it rot in your fridge instead? Also no! No one cares if you did that and it accomplishes nothing except make the problem much worse, which is exactly what not voting gets you.
Again, the duopoly is the staus quo, it will not help fix the systematic problems our society faces.
Then get involved in a 3rd party that works against the republican fascists and coordinates with Democrats for ballot access like WFP.
Whining about "the duopoly" and not voting will just move things further right.
Reading comments like this is unbelievably frustrating, because you’re so close to being right, but you refuse to take that next tiny step, which makes you dangerously wrong.
Yes, both parties are lobbied out the ass, it’s bad and it’s wrong, but which party at least tries to mitigate the harm? Yes, there’s unproductive political theater that divides, but which party at least tries to talk about real issues that matter to everyday voters?
Your approach is akin to burning down the house instead of doing the hard work of fixing the roof. You will never get the outcome you imagine by voting for a third party, unless you do the hard work of improving our overall system, from inside the system. You play the game with the team you have, not the team you want.
We are currently in a fascist regime; both parties are heavily lobbied by corporations that dictate policy.
That's not fascism.
People continue to struggle more and more under both parties, while they play political theater to continue to divide us.
100% people need to engage more. And in national elections quit voting for 3rd parties. Showing solidarity with and not dividing themselves from the rest of the left. Till our voting system is reformed and 3rd party presidential candidates are no longer a mathematical impossibility. With the only message being sent, that you're safe to ignore.
Voting outside the two-party system will help establish that people do have standards when voting.
That's literally the exact opposite of what it does.
Yes, and a good percentage of the populace decides to stay in and not reward the duopoly with their vote.
Then they get the lack of change they've committed to.
Why is it that any time these pseudo-intellectual “leftists” pop up to spew their bullshit, they’re knocked back by like… 5-10 people that absolutely school them and in the end, all they can respond is-
“Nuh-uhh!”
And then rinse and repeat the following day. What do they think they’re accomplishing? I mean, it’s especially very telling that they’re downvoted into the dark ages on a platform that supposedly leans heavily in their direction.
This says a lot in my opinion. In that there may be hope for lemmy once the election is over and these vapid people eventually collapse in on themselves like a dying star.
THEY ALWAYS COME BACK. But it will be quieter for a year or two. If they're sincere, and some are. They're suffering form the same mental weakness/illness that the MAGATS are. They want to believe they are righteous, correct, and in possession of special knowledge or insight. That they believe those that disagree with them can't comprehend.
If they're not sincere. Well they're still like the MAGATS. Malicious, spiteful, and crab mentally. Either hypocritically, simply anti-west like most ML you see. Or benefiting disproportionately on the backs of labor. And know the best way to keep labor down. Is to divide it against itself. Kind of like ML governments do as well.
Very long way to tell us how straight and white and not in immediate danger you are.
Wrong assumtions on all parts.
Nice try though, racing to the bottom with victimhood so as to disregard others that do not bow down to your ideals.
If that's true, then you're in the same boat as us, only you're holding the gun to your own head instead of having it held by someone else, and talking about what a principled stand pulling the trigger is going to be.
This imaginary gun is being held by the duopoly against the populace every four years, just so that the status quo can continue.
Fact that you call it imaginary continues to spell out for us your position of privilege.
You are no ally of the oppressed. You are an appropriator of our language to buy your own feelings of moral superiority.
Again, just spelling out how white and not in danger you are, just now you're lying about it because you think just going "nah bro" hides how above it all you're talking as if you know you'll be fine anyways.
Political tribalism is working really well to keep dividing us.
You have already made up your mind that everyone who does not follow your ideals must have much more privilege than yourself.
No, you just behave in a way that gives yours away because you're the exact kind of privileged twit who unironically named themself "LeftOfJillStein" like that signals anything other than that you're a purity tester who can afford to let everyone else die while they wait for their messiah before taking any action towards even harm mitigation.
Especially considering Jill Stein is a tool of the right wing. Democrats are left of Jill Stein.
Again, you made up your mind to have a competition of racing to the bottom, so you can continue to dismiss and ignore others.
I am for fighting for a better society for the future, and that starts by growing grassroots movements and continuing to help our local communities.
I see the Green Party as a stepping stone that will help us much more in the long term, tacking our systematic problems.
Exactly what grass roots steps are the greens taking aside from appearing out of thin air every four years to spoil elections to the Republicans?
I didn't just make up my mind, you chose to behave in a way that made you obvious.
The green party's goal is a trump win.
Sawant's speech, introducing Jill Stein. Emphasis mine:
We are not in a position to win the White House, but we do have a real opportunity to win something historic, we could deny Kamala Harris the state of Michigan. And the polls show that most likely Harris cannot win the election without Michigan.”
That's who you want to vote for?
The person trying to give Trump a win?
Just be honest with yourself and vote for Trump then. Or, you know, place a vote for Harris and not have republican fascism win.
I hate Jill Stein, but in that person's defense, Kamala could easily undo that by stop supporting the genocide and being more affirmative with being against it. That's the only reason Michigan is up in the air.
The person who said that is part of Stein's campaign, their goal is for Harris to lose and give Trump a win.
As much as I hate what Israel is doing, that's completely unrelated to what the Jill Stein and the Green Party are trying to do.
I’m going to bet they’re not wrong. You clearly have nothing to lose by throwing away your vote. Meanwhile, others need to vote for their lives and the lives of our loved ones while YOU….
You get to sit and pretend that none of it matters unless you get your way.
That’s entitlement. And entitlement usually only come from a single source.
Hey vote and you can accomplish alllll this wonderful stuff, all the stuff you want.
You: wHy dO yOu WaNt mE tO vOtE iN fEaR.
Hey vote and you can accomplish alllll this wonderful stuff, all the stuff you want
Voting is a necessary but not sufficient condition for accomplishing things. For example, I voted for Obama to get some kind of single payer and that didn't happen.
Plus there's things I want that no amount of voting will accomplish, like the dissolution of nation-states.
What Dems need is consistent and overwhelming victories. Want single payer? Then you need more house reps and senators so Manchin types can't water it down. Thus the message in the original post.
Unfortunately I can't vote in other districts or states so I'm at the whims of whatever everyone else does.
Like I said in another post: Voting is a group project and everyone in my group is ignorant and short-sighted. I hold no hope for ever getting the sort of overwhelming victories we need.
If it will take forty years of solid Democratic majorities to unfuck this country then it will never be unfucked.
This is the point where I point to the original post.
The original post is very Pollyanna and ignores systemic and demographic problems that will never allow that level of domination.
I've been voting for 25 years and these things haven't happened, and I don't think they will ever happen.
It's a tad simplistic but it's on point because the left never shows up or votes 3rd party. If they showed up, it would be a big change.
I think the reason the left never shows up is because they don't exist in the numbers Internet wonks think they do.
Maybe, maybe not. But 3rd party instead of Gore cost him the election. I think the protest non voters cost Hillary the election. And in any case the target for discussion here is all these Lemmy users that don't vote in protest.
Voting for the status quo for many decades did not improve the lives of workers.
In fact, we are involved in multiple wars, and our economy is not doing so well again.
Do you notice you misportray again? You vote for change. Sure it might be a little change until the Dems are sure they can keep winning, but that's how change starts. Like, see the original post again.
Carter wanted to change things. And he got voted the fuck out.
So Clinton learned to go to the center, and he won.
Gore wanted to change things and ran on environmentalism. And bam he lost the election.
So Obama learned to not say anything. He ran on vague hope. But he did the ACA. And what was his thanks? To lose the House of Reps, then again lose the house of reps, and then to lose both the house of reps and the senate.
Clinton said she'd have a map room to fight climate change. And bam she lost the election.
So Biden learned to stfu about environmentalism. And he won. But Biden did green energy anyway. And what was his thanks? Polls said he was going to lose.
So Kamala also learned to stfu about environmentalism and pretty much anything progressive.
That's what the situation is. The Dems go to the center because everytime they look left they loose. How do you make things progress? By giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories.
Such an astute point! Well said!
Man… this makes me miss being in high school.
our economy is not doing so well again.
Uhh
4 month old account
Posts nothing but praise for Third Parties/Jill Stein (a known spoiler vote and Russian asset)
Found the Hidden Trump Supporter guys
Nice try.
I know you would rather I vote for Trump than Dr. Jill Stein, but I do not support the duopoly.
A vote for Stein is supporting Trump.
That's her purpose. She's nothing but a tool of the right wing. Democrats are left of Jill Stein.
Edit: , -> ;
It seems many of you want third party voters to vote for Trump, but we do not support or vote for the duopoly.
Democrats are left of Jill Stein.
Your political views are skewed; I would double check the records:
Jill Steins platform is nonsense. She has done nothing to accomplish any of it, only shows up for presidential elections, and one of her people literally said that their goal was to try and get Harris to lose battleground states for a Trump win as they know Jill Stein won't.
Said at a Jill Stein event as part of a speech.
Jill Stein is a tool of the republican party and nothing more.
I suggest you find a third party that isn't completely garbage.
No one here believes you.
^ THIS… is what MAGA wants you to believe. ^