What I learned from 3 years of running Windows 11 on “unsupported” PCs
What I learned from 3 years of running Windows 11 on “unsupported” PCs
When your old PC goes over the Windows 10 update cliff, can Windows 11 save it?
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ITT: People who talk about Linux (as if that was the subject) because they just can't accept that some people actually need or want to use Windows and might find articles like this one useful.
If you need Windows, don’t run it on hardware that doesn’t support Windows 11. If you need it, do it the right way, so you can count on it working.
Now, what do you do with your old hardware? There are plenty of good ideas in the comments here.
Or instead of installing Linux as a workaround and having to learn how to use a new OS and having to troubleshoot a ton of inevitable issues to make it work as well as the setup you're used to just... Use a workaround to skip the hardware requirement! In the end both are a way to work around Microsoft's requirements, one is something you need to deal with once just requiring you to follow a guide and you're done, the other will be an ongoing learning process.
Honestly the only people worried about learning a new OS are people that have not even tried another OS for longer then 15 minuts in the last few years.
The desktop is still a desktop so is the taskbar.
The mouse works like a mouse, browser works like a browser and the majority of apps these days are browser apps.
The single actual difference i can think off is that rather then downloading an exe you use something similar to an appstore if your non technical or the command line if you don’t.
And if you are just a little technical you can acutely download that exe and install/run it just fine. (Wine)
Worrying about learning an new OS isn't as simple as you make it. It takes time, dedication, and will power to work through the pain points.
Most Linux users give answers like "just use Linux" but it's not that simple. Yes, it's easier to switch these days because more and more apps are browser/cloud based. But technically a chrome book would be an easier switch if that's the mentality.
I "use" my PC. I don't simply check email and go on Facebook. I'm currently trying Linux for probably the 4th or 5th time. It's easier to get into these days, but it still functions completely differently than Windows, as it should.
For example, It took me at least an hour to figure out how to partition and mount a drive. There's some not so clear information out there so finding the right info wasn't as easy as it should be. OK no big deal, now I know, but I don't necessarily want to chase answers like that every time I use my computer.
Lastly, I've never accepted using Wine as a work around for unsupported programs. OK, maybe if you have 1, but not if you have 6. That's not an acceptable solution when your needs scale up like that. And I have many. I'm not going to 100% get away from Windows. It sucks, but it's reality.
You do sound like a person knowledge enough to solve their own issues and you have been trying linux so I wouldn't lump you in with the majority of users that believe that all of linux requires terminal knowledge.
I let you in on a secret. I still have my windows drive in dual boot. I was very scared of linux, i just saw a hyprland gif and fell in love. As a windows poweruser i could not fully commit on that whim.
I have not booted into it in months and i use the same drive to install proton games. (So i can theoretically launch them from both sides) but i do plan to keep it there, just in case. At least for as long as i use that machine.
So by all means you are pretty much as much a limux user as i am, the only difference is with what os we dedicate time.
Recently i got into a powershell course from work and i know you can use 7 on unix, but i am actually thinking of spinning up some windows vm. My work is all windows so i do need to keep up. And there are good things i could say about it.
But i have a personal drive to learn linux, rooted in the philosophy of technological freedom, unrestricted by corporate whims. One day i hope to truly leave windows for a foss new world (does not need to be linux) and i hope sincere that on your own time, you will also join me there.
I'm with you on the philosophy of tech freedom, which is why I'm back to trying Linux again. So yeah, we'll take that journey together.
I just think its over simplified by most, and I guess I got the wrong impression of you by your 15 minute comment.
I've seen multiple people recently post something like, I've switched to Linux and can never go back...but I hated it for a year. That makes so much sense to me, and I just feel that most Linux users leave off the learning curve part, and just gloss over to fully knowledgeable use.
So many people just don't have the time or energy to just jump into something new. I've been using windows for 30 years, and learned a lot along the way. Its going to be tough to learn Linux without daily usage and experimentation (and totally screwing stuff up). That's a tough pill for most people to swallow.
It took me at least an hour to figure out how to partition and mount a drive
This is honestly surprising to me, because the process is basically the same on most Linux DEs as it is on Windows:
- search for "partition" and open the app
- select the drive you want to format
- adjust partition table
- apply
The UI is a little different, but the two major DE families (GNOME and KDE) have a partition tool built-in with a nice graphical representation of what's going on, which is IMO more intuitive than what I've done w/ Windows in the past (hasn't been since Win 7, so things may have changed).
That said, if you search for it, you'll get a half dozen (or more!) answers because everyone has their favorite tool (fdisk, cfdisk, etc). But what's provided in the default installs of most major Linux distros is dead simple. And that's why I recommend Linux Mint to new Linux users, it comes with pretty much everything you'd need out of the box.
I’ve never accepted using Wine as a work around for unsupported programs
Agreed. If you need specific Windows software and it isn't available on Flatpak, I'd tell you to stick w/ Windows.
But if you're okay with learning using something similar (i.e. you can use any word processor and don't specifically need Word), then by all means, muck about with WINE if you want to give it a shot, because you have a high quality alternative as a backup plan.
That said, if you only need one or two Windows-specific apps occasionally, I'd recommend setting up a VM or dual-boot. I had a VM for years because I needed a couple Windows-specific apps occasionally, and I was okay with the performance hit on the rare chance that I'd need to run it.
It sounds entirely like FUD. In my opinion Plasma wayland is prettier, far more simple, and much more mature than Windows. Windows feels old, clunky & now uses dark design as part of its UX.
How long
withwill working around the requirements work? If I need Windows, I’m not going to risk it.Then get newer hardware, simple as that, anything from 2017 or more recent will work.
Yes, that’s what you should do to run Windows.
And then use the noncompliant hardware for Linux.
That's not true, the OG Ryzen technically meets the requirements (has the TPM chip), but at least when I ran the upgrade check, it failed. So maybe update that to 2018.
How is having to apply workarounds to keep windows working on old machines any different from troubleshooting the occasional linux issue? It's a rethorical question, the difference is that the workaround on Windows is mandatory while the Linux troubleshoot is nowadays rare and usually related to edge cases.
Some of the workarounds in this article are far more involved and convoluted than what I've ever had to do in 15 years of linux. Some are even dangerous for system stability and security. My very recent install of bazzite in a new laptop has been a perfectly out of the box it just works experience. Not even having to open the terminal. 100% friendly GUI without compromising flexibility, power and customizability. Today, suggesting linux with a solid desktop environment like KDE plasma is just foolproof. The end user will be using exactly the same knowledge and habits of Windows, without the harassment machine that is MS now. The change is not learning a new OS, is just switching a few assumptions on how some advanced things work.
Meanwhile I started on Bazzite, my display signal just stopped whenever there was load on the GPU, two days trying different things to make it work, switched to Mint, GPU works but wifi antenna doesn't, another couple hours to make it work... Windows? Install it and... Well, that's it, it just works.
Let's not pretend there isn't driver hell on Microsoft, sometimes its even worse than Linux.
Yup, on Linux, you have three possible outcomes:
- works perfectly - most common
- doesn't work at all
- partially works
Ideally, you end up with 1 or 2, because 3 gives you hope that you'll get it working properly eventually. I had this happen on my desktop, when I got a new motherboard, the WiFi chip gave really crappy performance because it was stuck on an old Wi-Fi standard or something. I got it to work at ~20mbit/s, but eventually gave up and bought a new Wi-Fi card for $20 or something and now I'm getting way better speed. And this was despite following my own advice to only buy Intel hardware, this chip is just notorious for having issues and is certainly an outlier (replacement chip is also Intel, but a more capable chip).
I had a lot of frustration on Windows w/ my wife's computer running AMD's audio driver and AMD GPUs, whereas both just work on Linux. After a couple hours, it mostly works as expected, but it's still a bit janky. So it absolutely goes both ways.
I’ve had weird Linux issues similar to that before. However, I’ve also had weird Windows issues too where it didn’t “just work”. I’ve had 2 experiences that really stick out to me with Windows
The first was Intel ARC, I absolutely love the card I have and was using it on a dual boot system. Linux ran it like a dream under Mesa, I just had to install a few more packages to get GPU compute for things like Blender. But Windows was an entirely different story. The driver worked great but Windows update was the absolute worst thing to ever come out of this. I’d have my driver all up-to-date and Windows update would come along, and completely downgrade my driver, to this one specific driver (I don’t remember the exact version) that didn't even support Intel ARC Control. It would do this randomly too, sometimes during a game, or during Blender renders which caused those things to crash and waste hours of time. It also had a 50% chance to just completely blue screen my system, which lead to a broken/incomplete driver install. It was a mess
The other was with a friend’s laptop I was helping repair. It was running Windows 11 and kept blue screening left and right for what seemed like RAM and driver issues. Tried switching out the RAM sticks, ran Memtest86, all tested good. Tried a new SSD and a fresh install of Windows 11, same issue even before any drivers were even installed. Tried the same thing but with Windows 10 and it worked flawlessly. The laptop had full support with Windows 11 and no workarounds was necessary but Windows 11 just didn’t work at all.
Not to say that Linux has been a smooth ride the entire time, far from it. But Windows has been pretty much the same from my experience in terms of weird bugs and crashes.
TL;DR: I’ve had my fair share with Windows shenanigans, been way too many times where it didn’t “just work” as much I would’ve liked. From GPU drivers to the entire OS.
On Mint, you troubleshoot the wifi antenna following a guide once and then you're done. On Bazzite you probably just needed to click to change to X11 instead of plain Plasma, on the login screen. I would bet money that you have an Nvidia GPU. Sometimes Nvidia breaks the drivers support on Wayland. They intentionally neglect it in order to keep your kind of mentality around.
On Windows, MS is going to eventually fix the workarounds so you can't update your computer anymore.
All AMD setup
Funny how people are downvoting when all I've done is specified that no, it can't be justified by the hardware I'm using.
"to avoid learning new things, just learn these new things instead and repeat as needed until it doesn't work anymore! duh!"
It's so annoying to see in literally every thread about windows
Its part of their personality.
They remind me of my devout jehovah witness neighbor who's been doorknocking and dropping flyers in my mailbox for 20+ years to remind me I'm going to burn if I don't convert.
I think a lot of people have switched to Linux and realized it was just a lot better, myself included. It took me a bit to let the differences soak in, just like when I got my first smart phone but after a bit of using it and trying things out you realize you should have done it a long time ago
Sure, and the article exists for those who want to go that route.
Comments are comments, as in discussion about and around the topic. In this case, people are discussing Linux as an alternative, because it is a viable alternative for most people, especially the type for whom this article is too complex. Discussion about Linux as a viable alternative is therefore absolutely welcome and should be encouraged.
I also welcome discussion about macOS as well, especially since they have a really good track record for supporting their hardware with software updates.
If this pisses you off, just know that Microsoft will probably make more changes like this that will piss you off. They're trying to take more control over your computer little by little, and right now they're doing it in the name of "security," but eventually they'll likely drop that and just make changes for the sake of lock-in. So if this pisses you off, you should consider alternatives if they'll work for you.
The thing is, it's impossible to have a discussion about Windows on Lemmy because they automatically get hijacked by people who only have one thing to say "Install Linux you idiot.", they add nothing to the conversation and are off topic.
Agreed, and it's really unfortunate. In many areas, Lemmy is much more of a "hive mind" than Reddit was, probably because a lot of people with similar ideas got pissed about the same thing and left around the same time.
ITT: Stockholm Syndrome victims defending the abusive relationship they have with their OS.
Newsflash, honey: she doesn't respect you; she only wants to exploit you. It's time to break up!
Yes because never ever an user had abused their OS.
Newsflash honey: it's a fucking tool, it doesn't have feelings. It's your own choice to use it or not.
Man fuck these half baked parasocial analogies.
That's right: it is a fucking tool, which means nothing the user does to it or with it could possibly count as "abuse" by the user. An OS is supposed to exist to do exactly the computer owner's bidding; no more, no less.
But Microsoft certainly doesn't see it that way. Instead, Windows exists to do Microsoft' bidding, computer owner's rights be damned. It's Microsoft that's abusing you, by whoring you out to advertisers and subverting your property against you, when you use Windows.
Bro, it's true you can't disable certain things, but you can certainly break it. I can still use a previous version and not update. I can still pirate ltsc. I can remove or install any bullshit I want. It takes the same fucking time when configuring your Linux distro of choice, unattended or not.
I don't give a fuck what Microsoft thinks. I can still break their os to do what I want.
You're too self absorbed in Linux good windows bad.
Sure, you can work around Microsoft's intentional sabotage, in the same way that you can make excuses about "falling down stairs" when friends ask about the black eyes your abusive spouse gave you. But you shouldn't have to.
Oh and...
It takes the same fucking time when configuring your Linux distro of choice, unattended or not.
...no it fucking doesn't, BTW. (At least not unless you intentionally choose to use a 'difficult' distro like Arch or Gentoo.)
I don't think you know what unattended means.
Overall, no actual proper answers. Got it.
Who needs Windows? You need to use better applications. And if work requires Windows, this article still doesn't apply because it is the company's responsibility, not yours, and running on an unsupported machine is a security risk.
Because of course there's absolutely no program a regular person outside of work could possibly need Windows for. None at all. Not a single application. Not a single game. Not a single piece of hardware they're using (like many laptops with hardware needing specific drivers that don't exist for linux).
Nope, absolutely nothing a regular user could have a need for Windows.
OWC instructions for updating their firmware on macOS are basically "Install parallels. Install windows 11. Run the firmware updater."
https://eshop.macsales.com/support/owc-thunderbolt-3-dock
I didn't say all applications work. I said use better ones.
As for hardware, less computers support win11 than Linux. You can run Linux on 40 year old computers, and on brand new computers.
Ans this article is literally about bypassing the restrictions that were put in place to protect users with CPUs that have the specte and meltdown vulnerabilities. You're safer on win10 even after they stop supporting it than win11.
So just another variation of the "you're using it wrong" excuse. Gotcha.
If you'd rather risk becoming a botnet node than to even consider using alternative software then you are absolutely using it wrong.
If your computer doesn't support win11, then switching to Linux before win10 ends is the only right choice. The other less right choices are:
Stay on win10, Upgrade to win11 and disconnect it from the network and the internet permanently.
The worst choice is do what OP did.
You’re safer on win10 even after they stop supporting it than win11.
That's just not true. An actual spectre/meltdown/etc exploit is much less likely than you run-of-the-mill virus or whatever, so if you're not getting security updates to your OS and apps, you'll be much worse off than the fringe case of a theoretical attack.
So that part is just flat out wrong.
Either upgrade your hardware or run Linux, don't run outdated software on anything that touches the internet.
Security updates means patches against exploits like spectre/meltdown, not antivirus updates. You'll still be getting antivirus updates on windows 10.
Which means that until such an exploit has been discovered, windows 10 would be safer than windows 11 since windows 10 does have a countermeasure against spectre/meltdown while windows 11 doesn't. Windows 11 literally does not provide security updates to unsupported computers, and the exploits are already known.
windows 10 would be safer than windows 11
Virus protection is a lot different than security patches, and there are a lot more exploits than hardware-level exploits. Virus protection can limit the mechanisms that security holes can be exploited, but they aren't proactive, but reactive, so by the time your antivirus detects a virus, you have already been exploited, and it's possible you have been exploited for some time. Antivirus checkers don't catch everything, and they can be delayed in catching issues for quite some time.
On the whole, I think Windows 11 would be safer than Windows 10 because:
- almost nobody uses Windows 11 on unsupported hardware, so the attacks in the wild will be much less common
- a lot of people will use Windows 10 on supported hardware after SW support ends, so any zero-days will remain unpatched at the OS level, so you'll be vulnerable to any new viruses using older exploits; the longer you use unsupported SW, the more viruses will be created to exploit it
If I had a friend/family member considering using Windows 11 w/ unsupported hardware, I would give them these options:
- upgrade their hardware - I'll help them pick out something or upgrade what they have
- use something other than Windows - some flavor of Linux, most likely
Remaining on Windows 10 is unacceptable because it'll get more insecure the longer they use it, and using Windows 11 on unsupported hardware is unacceptable because they're vulnerable to bugs in unsupported hardware. That said, I think Windows 11 on unsupported hardware will be more secure than Windows 10 w/o software updates on supported hardware.
I use Linux and none of the programs I need for structural engineering work on Linux.
Trust me, I would totally ditch the dual boot if I could, but sadly, I can't
Hopefully that'll change as more users adopt it. But most users don't need structural engineering or other specialized software, they just don't want to change their workflow.
Exceptions exist, and they should become fewer as the userbase of Linux grows.
What are they called? What do you need for Linux that only works on Windows or Mac right now?
Revit, Tekla, AutoCAD, the usual. I have tried out FreeCAD but found it clunky to use comparably.
Try BriscCAD. It is very similar to AutoCAD and supports their files.
Revit seems to work fine with Wine, and although wineHQ reports Tekla performance as garbage, that was a very long time ago. It probably works better now.
Trust me, if you're used to the AutoCAD workflow and UI, BricsCAD is just different enough that it can be a bit jarring and a huge drop to your productivity.
I'm sorry but "you need to use better applications" is very funny to read when most of the time the Linux open source alternative will never be as good as the product made by the company that has hundreds of paid employees working on it.
otoh a lot of the most useful and enduring software ever made has been made by volunteers in their spare time
made by the company that has hundreds of paid employees working on it.
You'd have a point there, if the company's aim was solely to make a better product; it's been increasingly about increasing their margins at the expense of the users, advertising as much as possible and buying out the competition.
Except most big open source project are developed by companies, and only the tiny ones aren't. This applies to all open source projects on all platforms.
Also, most of them already are better. People just don't want to change their layouts and workflows. And people also don't value privacy, which if they would, they wouldn't rate the proprietary software as half as good.
Exactly. For example:
- LibreOffice - Collabora offers paid support for larger companies and does a ton of development on the core
- WINE - CodeWeavers has their own proprietary version (CrossOver) that they sell as a commercial product; oh, and Valve helps a ton too
- GNOME - RedHat/IBM funds it and most things in its ecosystem for its commercial customers
And so on. Most big FOSS projects are backed by one or more companies with full-time developers supporting it. The difference is that the license makes lock-in a lot less likely, since the community (read: non-paid devs) will likely patch in compatibility (i.e. file support, data export, etc).
Linux doesn't have several programs I use to control my peripherals, the mobo RGB profile, and GPU fan control from Sapphire. It also doesn't have a proper AMD adrenalin as far as I've checked, nor firmware updater for SSD/NVME, and the list goes on and on. I also heard controlling high refresh rate displays on linux is a nightmare.
If I want to use the gaming PC I built to its full potential then I need windows...
The article is still dumb though, anyone left behind using old hardware should not go through the pain of forcing win11 to run. They all should switch to linux
You usually don't need proprietary software and drivers on Linux because of the great general purpose open source alternatives. Even on Windows, a ton of the drivers are actually useless and only bloat your system or perform invasive telemetry.
Personally I don't even use the RGB features on my gaming PC, but OpenRGB is open source and lightweight. I would probably use it over proprietary RGB profiles even on Windows. You should give it a try.
GPU fan control is already available by default in most Linux distributions and should require no additional drivers.
AMD always have Linux drivers. The Linux adrenaline driver is here: https://www.amd.com/en/support/download/linux-drivers.html
SSD/NVME firmware updates should also already be supported by default in linux. With for example fwupdmgr.
High refresh rate displays should also work out the box on the modern distributions. On Linux Mint and Ubuntu they have a GUI for it, but changing resolution and refresh rate with Xrandr also only takes one or two terminal commands. There likely is software to do it, but if anything I could write you a script that does it if your distribution doesn't already have GUI for it. I had to write a script to adjust some of my monitors' drawing area because I mirror, but my displays don't have the same aspect ratio.
I have already looked up most of what you recommended, and I arrived at the same initial conclusion...
- OpenRGB doesn't list support for my Gigabyte mobo, or XPG ram (unless I'm reading this wrong). I need this to stop the default behavior which is rainbow puke
- AMD adrenalin only lists 3 distros, and none of which I'd like to use (I'd prefer linux mint LMDE)
- Plus I haven't even talked about the apps (office for starters, then itunes+icloud which I use to sideload apps)
OpenRGB doesn’t list support for my Gigabyte mobo
Unfortunately, this is still relatively common on Linux, but it's not really a Linux issue, but a manufacturer issue. The manufacturers should be the ones supporting Linux, not the other way around.
The situation is getting better, so when it comes time to upgrade, you can find something more open so you're not beholden to some random software and have more choice.
AMD adrenalin only lists 3 distros
Honestly, I don't see the point of adrenalin on Linux. For framerate locking, use libstrangle or mangohud. Don't bother with OC, it's honestly not worth it (if you really want to, it is totally possible).
I don't know what else Adrenaline provides, but I'm sure there's a way to get what you want on Linux.
apps
This is absolutely hit-or-miss, and IMO a bigger issue if you really need something that's not properly supported on Linux. If it's not in the repositories or in flathub, IMO, don't bother if it's going to be a dealbreaker (esp. Adobe products).
But if you're fine using an alternative (e.g. LibreOffice for office software, likewise for any other apps), then give WINE a shot, maybe you can keep your same workflow. Or if it's really only for an occasional thing either run a VM (if it's not performance sensitive) or dual boot. I have a drive w/ Windows installed just in case I need it for something, but I haven't booted into it for something like 2 years now. But it's there if I ever actually need it (will need a ton of updates though).
When people create programs/drivers "See, it exists for Linux, no need for manufacturers, it's much better!"
When programs/drivers are missing for Linux "It's the manufacturers you should blame!"
So, which is it now?
We should always blame manufacturers. Either it's manufacturers helping out development by creating decent drivers, or it's manufacturers hiding their documentation so developers have to reverse engineer their chips, which takes way longer. But the focus should always be on the manufacturers, whether for good or bad.