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I went home with a lady friend, who invited me into her bed, then said that we're not going to do anything. So, I didn't even try, and we just talked and cuddled. FF to two years later, and we start dating, and she questioned why I didn't try anything that night. Like, duh. A lady says no, it means no. That is what I've had drilled into me as a male since I was a very young age. I'm so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
You did the right thing. I helped a lady friend move out from her husband's when they split. She didn't want to stay in a new apartment all alone, so I offered to spend the night on her couch. Well come time to bed down, she wanted me in her bed. Then she wanted to snuggle. Then she started rubbing her backside against my front.
Well I read the signs and we had sex. It was fine. Wind up dating for a bit. Like 3 weeks later we were talking about something and she lays on me, "I never said we could have sex so technically you raped me."
You do not fucking accuse someone of technically rape as playful banter. Things went awkward and downhill after that. Not solely because of that. She was not ready for a relationship that soon after splitting from her husband, but I was young and horny and too inexperienced to possess the level of maturity necessary to understand that.
Anyway, maybe if I had made sure to give her more time it would've gone better. Probably not. But I damn sure wouldn't have gotten accused of rape.
Technically she raped you too...
I'm not that technical. I was trying really hard to be a good guy but I definitely wanted to fuck her. That whole façade of maturity crumbled at my first opportunity.
It was all bullshit, technically and otherwise. But there's something about a woman looking at you and saying you raped her that undoes you. There was probably a time in my life after that when I was in danger of going full incel. But I didn't and here we are. We were both young and dumb and I'm sure she could never have known how deeply that cut.
Yeah... Puuh. That's not a normal thing to say. If it's dark humor, and said with irony, it might be perfectly fine, and even funny. Because then, they don't actually mean it. But, if they do mean it? Sheesh. You dodged a poison leaded bullet.
Hard to explain exactly. I think she meant it humorously, except in a way where she kinda meant it? I think it was in the context of her ex sexually abusing her and me saying I was nothing like that.
It's not cool to say, "my ex was a crazy bitch." I was no paragon of maturity myself. But I do think she had some issues. She was about 22 (I think that's how old I was) and that had been her second marriage, and there were issues with how we treated one another that spoke to both of our immaturities.
I think the whole thing lasted about 3 months, so it wasn't like it was so bad that I instantly left. But it sticks in my craw nearly thirty years later. On some level, she meant that. And she probably told her next partner I was part of the pattern of abuses she suffered—waving her damage around like a broken wing looking for... something.
She's probably grown up by now. Most of us do. Those are some really awkward years for a lot of us.
ETA: Thinking on it, the thing is she was trying to bring me down to her ex's level. She was joking that I shouldn't hold myself above the guy who abused her. That's just not funny even in a playful way. No matter how tee hee you say it, that's toxic as fuck.
I'm not scared. For me, that's like being afraid of being accused of murder.
Quite right. No one is going to accuse me of murder because I have never, and would never murder anyone. Same is true if sexual harassment or assault.
No one will ever misconstrue my actions as sexual harassment or assault because...surprise...I don't do those things. All sexual contact I have with people is wholly consensual, and consent is acquired with no pressure on the other party(-ies), in a sober state, and in advance.
The only way I'm ever going to be accused of any wrongdoing toward another human...harassment, assault, murder, or otherwise...is if someone has a vendetta against me because I chose to not tolerate their bullshit for whatever reason. In which case, I have a wealth of friends and exes who would be very happy to serve as character references.
In short: If you are worrying about being accused of sexual harassment or assault, then you are approaching relationships wrong.
I have never, and would never murder anyone.
But this is exactly what a murderer would say
I am a big nerd when it comes to relationship theory. I heavily advocate for purposeful relationships in which each party makes it well-known what their wants, needs, dealbreakers, boundaries, STI status, etc. are well before clothes come off.
I regularly hear people reply, "Lol no, you start talking like that and she's gonna nope out because she's not gonna find that sexy at all." To which I reply, "Then maybe you're dating the wrong people." The people in my circles...men, women, and enbies alike...highly value consent, so when a potential partner starts this discussion, it is very, very sexy. It shows that they value our safety, sexual health, informed consent and bodily autonomy, and people like that are the only people for whom I will ever take my clothes off.
Yup, I'm a professional dominatrix and having these open conversations is a must. If done correctly, it invites deeper intimacy and helps the relationship grow - it doesn't drive people away. The only reason honesty would drive someone away, is exactly the reason you should be honest - so they can have informed consent about what's taking place and say no if they want to. If someone isn't allowed to say "no" in the first place, then whether they say yes is irrelevant. Can't consent if you can't dissent.
Not into much BDSM myself but I am polyam and date a lot of kinksters, so much love and respect to you. 😊
So, fun story. My ex-wife, when we were dating, told me that she was raped by her dad after her parents were divorced. She said that this was why sexual intimacy was difficult for her. (I urged her to go into couples therapy wth me. She refused.) When we were going to get married, she invited her dad to the wedding, and I asked her about that; she said that it was actually her mom's boyfriend that had raped her, not her dad. But she very, very definitely said her dad did it, and it was clear from the context surrounding the conversation at the time that she knew I was interpreting her statement as being about her biological father.
So there are a few possibilities here. First, both her mom's boyfriend and her dad raped her when she was a pre-teen. It's not impossible, but it seems improbable. And also, why invite one of her her rapists to her wedding, and why try to re-build a relationship with him? And why lie to me when I said WTF? Second, her father really did rape her, and the boyfriend didn't. Cool, now she's falsely accused her mom's ex- of rape, and is trying to build a relationship with her rapist. Third, the boyfriend raped her; but why did she tell me her father had? Why drag him through the mud? Why not say that it was her mom's BF in the first place? Fourth--and this is the one I lean towards--she was not raped by either, and it was a convenient excuse to give me to explain why she wasn't interested in sex with me without saying she didn't like sex. Given that the decade we were married was nearly sexless, and that she eventually claimed to be asexual (which I doubt, since I know for certain that her sex life once we split was far, far busier than it had been when we were dating or married), that's the one that seems most probable.
You did the right thing.
Honestly, this weird dichotomy of "playing hard to get" and expecting the guy to make a move after being told no is in the process of dying, but it could go faster.
I often wonder how much slut shaming has to do with women who expect/want this sort of behavior from men. Does it make them feel like they aren't "responsible" for the sexual encounter if the guy is pushy, therefore they aren't a slut?
I've always wondered about it since I hated pushy dudes when I was still dating. My husband had excellent manners and etiquette, that's what initially attracted me to him, so this one is a mystery.
Maybe one day someone can figure it out and explain it to me.
My husband and I met at a friend's house and both ended up staying the night. The friend went up to his room, my husband set up the pull out couch for me to lay on... and then went to go sleep on the recliner. It was fucking adorable and I'm pretty sure that right there was the moment I decided he needed to be mine. I laughed at him and told him he needed to get his ass over to the bed because there was no way we weren't going to at least cuddle after making eyes at each other for 6 hours straight, lol.
Respect is fucking hot. I don't understand guys who don't get that, or women who don't think the same way.
I understand it. They think respect and consent is weak and pathetic. They want 'strong' people who violate others boundaries.
I often wonder how much slut shaming has to do with women who expect/want this sort of behavior from men.
Honestly, probably a lot. Women are every bit as horny as men are in their late teens and 20s, but there's a ton of social pressure on women to be both virgins and whores; not have sex, but be sexually desirable. (Meanwhile, men mostly get told that they're supposed to be ready to go all the time.) The old Christmas song, "Baby It's Cold Outside" relies on this whole trope; she wants to say yes, but she can't just say yes; she needs to have some excuse. And he knows that, so he's trying to give her the excuse she wants. But to our ears now it ends up sounding very rape-y.
I often wonder how much slut shaming has to do with women who expect/want this sort of behavior from men. Does it make them feel like they aren’t “responsible” for the sexual encounter if the guy is pushy, therefore they aren’t a slut?
this is 99% of it. It's about plausible deniability if things don't go well. it's all about pushing all the responsibility onto the man.
When have you ever met a woman admit to being bad at sex?
You did the right thing. She fumbled you.
I'm very curious how that conversation continued after you said no means no.
She was surprised at my answer, because it wasn't what other guys would have done. I guess ultimately she respected it because we dated for a few years.
I’m so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
OK, if all you people over there are like this, and you still do have functional relationships, maybe I'm really just unlikable and don't constantly fail at reading the signs.
Or somehow only likable for the particular kind of women who communicate with signs only. There definitely, confidently were such cases, but!
Really hard to believe it's a cultural thing.
I'm so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
So, you aren't worried about sexually assaulting somebody? You're just worried about being caught?
Oh fuck off, you not only knew what they meant, you're being awfully dismissive of what even a claim of sexual assault can do to a person.
you're being awfully dismissive of what even a claim of sexual assault can do to a person.
What do you think being sexually assaulted can do to a person?
What are you doing? There's no need for playing these games. You know exactly what people are saying and you're still instigating.
Don't feed the trolls
I was gonna say. Thanks.
You should be a basketball player if you can reach like that
They clearly said they didn't sexually assault her
And they clearly said the reason why they didn't do it was because they didn't want to be "called for sexual harassment". Not because they respect women and consent, but because they didn't want to be caught.
Dude you're being purposefully obtuse and pedantic. It's super lame. Nobody enjoys a conversation with someone who purposefully misunderstands you then starts arguing about it.
Don't feed the trolls
Can I introduce you to multivariate motivation?
What you said is a bit childish. No, definitely not scared of this because it will never happen. I'm not going to do this because I'll ensure there is consent first. Please read and understand what I said.. (edit: grammar)
