Time to get serious with E2E encrypted messaging
Time to get serious with E2E encrypted messaging
Apple is likely to stop providing its encrypted cloud service to U.K. users
I currently use Telegram for my friends and family, but have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK Government is either reaching agreement for backdoors with messaging services, or is trying its hardest to.
I'm also on Element/Matrix. Before I try to get my contacts to join me on there, should I be aware of any privacy issues or is that a good place to head?
I currently use Telegram for my friends and family
Telegram is probably the worst thing you could use, it doesn't encrypt messages by default and they are stored on Telegram's servers, so they can read them at any time.
I'm also on Element/Matrix. Before I try to get my contacts to join me on there, should I be aware of any privacy issues
Yes, Matrix leaks a bunch of metadata and doesn't have post-quantum encryption.
The best option is to use Signal. It uses end-to-end encryption by default for everything: Normal chats, group chats, voice and video calls and even stories. Messages are only stored on their servers (in encrypted format, so they can't access them) until you receive them, after which they are promptly deleted and only stored on your device. And Signal has much better metadata protection than Matrix. The UX is also much better and less confusing, making onboarding new users much easier.
But you should also be aware that Signal does not federate, so the company can be bought. They have control over all accounts and the servers, without easy way to migrate away again. So it might just be another trap.
Try to use federated services (like matrix), they are more robust against hostile take overs.
This is such a bad take it seems like deliberate misinformation.
Signal is open-source software maintained by a non-profit. User data is not stored on Signal servers, they have no way to access messages as they are stored and encrypted on your phone. If the Signal Foundation were revealed as bad actors then the open-source code could be forked to a new project.
Feel free to fully evaluate their code here: https://github.com/signalapp
so the company can be bought
The company (Signal Messenger LLC) is fully owned by Signal Foundation, a 501(c)3 non profit organization.
Try to use federated services
I generally like this idea, and I also use federated services for things like social media, that's why we're having a discussion here on Lemmy. But it introduces some issues with private messaging, like lack of reliability, which sucks if you want to use Matrix as your primary messenger, as well as metadata leaks. Federation is not always the answer, and in my opinion definitely not when it comes private and secure messaging.
they are more robust against hostile take overs
Probably around 80-90% of Matrix users are on the matrix.org homeserver, so it's absolutely not as decentralized and resilient as you think it is.
At least (to my knowledge) the Signal messages are decrypted on the client end, so buying the company doesn't give them automatic access to messages.
Having said that, I'm sure a hostile new owner could update the app to decrypt and then send the messages as plaintext to the servers if they wanted..
Telegram is the worst kind of "secure" messaging in that it gives you a false sense of security while not really being secure.
Telegram is the least secure thing there is. Not only it's complete zero effort security, it's also much above zero effort to advertise itself as almost secure. Not a good combination as you know.
The biggest issue with Matrix is that the server collects ALL the metadata. If that's your server, that's fine. If thats the default matrix.org server that almost everyone uses, you might as well be using WhatsApp. Same thing goes if any of those people are conversing with people on your server, as they will store all redundant metadata on their server as well.
Signal is easier to use, more private, and faster.
Signal requires a phone number on setup.
Also, matrix has bridges, which alone make it worthwhile for me. They, of course, don't help privacy, but they are so so nice for convenience.
Matrix is definitely slow though, and a grand majority of the clients are heavy terrible buggy electron apps. There are a few good ones ( nheko and the new beeper clients ), but even they have some rough edges.
I still use matrix all the time and love it.
If max privacy was the goal I think simplex looks wonderful. No required info for sign up, no way for them to possibly collect any metadata ( because there are no identifiers sent over internet for anyone at all ), E2EE, and decentralized.
Signal is easier to use, more private, and faster.
Unfortunately, it is also effectively tied to Google services due its app distribution and push notification channels on Android (which most people on Signal use), and as a centralised service, it is vulnerable to shutdown or network-level metadata monitoring by anyone with sufficient access/influence at Signal or their data center provider (such as a government who doesn't like encrypted messaging).
(Edit: rephrased for clarity)
it's also effectively tied to Google services due to the app distribution
It's been recently added to FDroid.
and push notification channels
You can use NTFY with Molly (which has been on FDroid for some time).
network-level metadata monitoring by anyone with sufficient access/influence at Signal or their data center provider (such as a government who doesn't like encrypted messaging).
This one is just a straight-up lie. Everything on the server is encrypted and no one has the keys except the participants.
telegram is not encrypted e2e
I’ve honestly found signal better than matrix.
Matrix is just not there yet in terms of features UI etc and is less private than signal because it collects way more metadata and stuff. I know the idea of federation is cool, but Signal works better for the privacy aspect.
I'm using simplex :3
Interesting—I feel like I see Matrix touted as more private than Signal b/c of Signal's phone number requirement. What compromising metadata does Matrix require that Signal does not?
Sorry I’ll let someone more knowledgeable answer about metadata, but signal does allow you to set a username and hide your phone number (so people add you with username instead if f number)
The downside of Signal is that it's centralized, and thus at the whim of those who run it. Structurally, it's not really different from Whatsapp or Telegram except for who owns it.
I don't think that's a fair comparison, simply because their structures are quite different. Signal is FOSS run by a 501(c)3 non-profit, whereas Whatsapp is obviously run by Meta and data mines its users; Telegram is also a nonprofit, but privacy was never their goal or mission.
They're all centralized, which I agree is a negative, but if something must be centralized, being run by a nonprofit foundation whose mission is privacy and E2EE is about the best option you could hope for in that scenario.
it’s not really different from Whatsapp or Telegram
That's not true. WhatsApp is fully proprietary and Telegram doesn't use E2EE by default. And even if you enable it, they use a weak encryption protocol.
The most privacy focused messaging app I know is SimpleX Chat, it has no user IDs, is FOSS, e2e encrypted with an option to use TOR, give it a try!
+1 for SimpleX
Simplex was bubbling about implementing CSAM. Any client mentioning it is not safe, period... Child safety and hate speech is always an excuse for tolitarian regimes ( sittenpolizei ) never a true approach for solving the issue ( child safety )
I have no idea about this, but as of now anyone can register.
For reference, CSAM is Belgium's government portal and a system of login, as far as I know, so I assume it would be used to check if someone is a minor at the time of registration
Child safety is important but implementing this would kind of defeat the purpose of a privacy focused app.
I agree that just gatekeeping children and therefore verifying everyone with a government platform, but then it raises the question on how to improve child safety on an app that's self-hostable with not even user IDs to identify the users?
I don't have an answer to that, but I don't like just saying "This solution is bad", I always try to add "So try this instead, because XXX"
I currently use Telegram for my friends and family, but have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK Government is either reaching agreement for backdoors with messaging services, or is trying its hardest to.
Unless you start an encrypted chat, Telegram chats are not E2E.
I’m also on Element/Matrix. Before I try to get my contacts to join me on there, should I be aware of any privacy issues or is that a good place to head?
Host your own Matrix node, and then you don't have to worry about prying eyes. Realistically, instead of worrying about the protocol, worry about the content of the text. Use PGP to encrypt your own text and send it over clearnet. Who cares at that point.
Definitely host your own node! It's trivial for a server admin to add a hidden bot to every chat and while it's still E2EE, an unknown party could still have a copy and key to read it.
Really good talk from DEFCON 32 about the service "Anom" by Joseph Cox (sorry for the lack of a link, at lunch, on mobile and about to get back to work).
Matrix is good for private general messaging. The fact that it's decentralised means it can also withstand things like government-ordered shutdowns or back doors, since there is no central point that controls the whole network.
Two things to be aware of:
- Some non-message bits (e.g. room topic text and membership) have not yet been moved to the encrypted channel, so those could be read by the administrator of a homeserver that participates in your chat room. Since most people care primarily about keeping the message content private, this is an acceptable trade-off to get all the things that Matrix offers.
- The upcoming Matrix 2.0 features and design choices simplify the UI and fix some occasional errors. It might be worth waiting until this stuff officially lands in the client apps before bringing your contacts to Matrix, for a better experience all around.
As long as you onboard them with the ElementX/SchildichatNext(better fork of element) mobile client, their experience and setup should be fairly future proof. Its still changing and growing for sure but the most important stuff is finally working now and the new call systems is a huge improvement.
But yeah if you want zero metadata, your only choice is P2P stuff like Briar.
Government-ordered shutdowns do not work the way you think. Government doesn't play by the rules, it makes rules for itself.
Which means - they may, say, make a list of instances updated hourly, which automatically get blocked by ISPs.
Free speech or not, it won't withstand such.
I think at this point it would be funnier to just use something obviously unsecure like discord but share your public key with the other user and then send encrypted text.
We went full circle to the early 2000s, slapping PGP on top of public messaging platforms!
I guess a vencord plugin for that wouldn't be that difficult to do
I used to do something like this before Signal became a thing. We used to use OTR via the Pidgin OTR plugin to send encrypted messages over Google Hangouts. Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure Pidgin supports Discord, so you could use the exact same setup to achieve what you described.
It was pretty funny to check the official Hangouts web client and see nonsensical text being sent.
hello beautiful people of lemmy I'm excited to make my first comment in here
so I wanted to ask: considering that WhatsApp is a big threat to privacy and even worse because of google and iOS backups, how big of an improvement would it be not using it and using the secret chat option in telegram instead? That would solve the issue wouldn't it? As far as I know the concern is with normal non encrypted conversations and the groups channels and all those.
I would love to use signal with everyone but where I live it seems that there is 0 worries about the topic so I only use it with my more "international" people. The most I can get is probably to use telegram E2EE.
Hello and welcome to the Fediverse.
Telegram's secret chat's encryption algorithm is made by Telegram themselves, which is already a red flag. You generally don't want to roll out your own encryption algorithm if you aren't cryptographers, which Telegram people aren't. Their MTProto is also not proven, so you'd rather not want to use it.
Here's a blog entry about their MTProto: https://web.archive.org/web/20180420061726/http://unhandledexpression.com/2013/12/17/telegram-stand-back-we-know-maths/
No proprietary software can truley provide secure messaging
Matrix is not proprietary. The protocol is FOSS, Synapse server is FOSS, Dendrite server is FOSS, there are FOSS clients, Element is FOSS too afaik.
can confirm, element is foss
My response to the body of this post is https://www.privacyguides.org/en/real-time-communication/
This might address the URL of this post (I've never interacted with "iCloud" so I don't necessarily know what would be a good replacement for it): https://www.privacyguides.org/en/document-collaboration/
You may want SimpleX. You can still self-host your own server if you wish, but it doesn't have nearly the metadata issues of matrix and encryption keys are stored in a database that you back up instead of constantly breaking
Is Briar any good?
The two encrypted messaging platforms I currently suggest are XMPP or Matrix. Both are usually fine and are decentralized. The main thing with them is to either self-host or choose a server you trust to set up an account — which applies to the Fediverse in general.
Out of curiosity, is there anything stopping you from suggesting SimpleX? How does SimpleX compare to XMPP or Matrix?
Mostly just that it's still pretty new and thus hasn't been as polished or scrutinized yet. Haven't tried it myself. For the sake of the OP's question, it may also be notable that it's a UK company.
I've heard good things about simplex give it a look
There’s also Wire
E2EE and can be used as desktop or phone app interchangeably. No phone number required for signup.
Family has been using this for years now