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I refuse to see how vim and emacs is worth learning. I only use it because that's the only option when editing server files. Beyond this, I couldn't imagine coding in these environments from scratch.
The biggest benefit of (neo)vim is the motions.
Honestly if you don't use vim motions in your ide of choice, you're missing out big time. Being able to do things like "Delete everything inside these parentheses". di( or "wrap this line and the two lines below in a pair of {}" ys2j{ , or "swap this parameter with the next one" cxia]a. with a single shortcut is game changing.
Even just being able to repeat an action a number of times is ridiculously useful. I use relative line numbers, so I can see how many lines away a target is and just go "I need to move down 17 lines" and hit 17j.
Absolutely insane how much quicker it is too do stuff with vim motions than ctrl-shift-arrows and the like.
Honestly those things just don't sound like common enough actions to be worth shaving 0.5 seconds off. How often do you know exactly how many lines to move a line by? And how often do you even need to move a line that far?
I still don't buy it.
Relative lines means each line except the one your cursor is on is relative to your current line. Like this:
5 5k jumps here
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3
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1
6 your cursor is here
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8 8j jumps here
The main reason I like it is I don't like mouse ergonomics. Keeping my hands on the keyboard just feels better
Yes I understood that. My point is how often do you know you need to move a line exactly 17 lines? Do you count them? Clearly much slower than doing it interactively by holding down ctrl-shift-down for a bit.
You ain't understanding it dog
I just look at the line number. If the code I want to edit is 17 lines up there's a 17 next to it. My ide window looks like my comment. Normally an ide would look like this
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As a vim user myself, I don't understand why you need relative lines either. I can just as easily type
:23to go to line 23.Mostly a matter of taste I think. One benefit is one less key press since relative keys shouldn't need to press enter at the end of the command. I mostly use it because it came default with LazyVim.
Thoose are line numbers in IDE. You don't count them, you see them
Line numbers are absolute, not relative (normally anyway; I think some editors allow showing relative line numbers). Anyway I think holding down (page) up/down is going to be just as fast.
There are both modes for absolute and relative line numbers in vim. Holding up/down might be intuitive nd easy to remember, but saving 1 second everytime you need to do this can add up pretty fast
Not "move the current line of code", but instead "jump the cursor a number of lines"
Oh so like page up/down then? Not exactly showing the raw power of Vim when you can use an existing key press! 😄
I can't tell if you're trolling; Page up and page down are different from "I need to jump 10 lines down" with
10j. Or 11 lines with11j. Or "Delete the line I'm on and the six below it" withd6j.They're not significantly different. Maybe it takes you 1s and me 2s. Not worth the effort of learning. Especially because Vim comes with significant downsides compared to full IDEs that will make you slower overall.
Name a downside, I'll tell you how you're probably wrong
You can't have a full integrated debug session with a watch window, locals (with an expandable tree for objects), stack, breakpoint list all visible at once. I.e. something comparable to this.
You can get pretty close to the same experience with https://github.com/mfussenegger/nvim-dap, any others?
Being able to do things like "Delete everything inside these parentheses". di( or "wrap this line and the two lines below in a pair of {}" ys2j{ , or "swap this parameter with the next one" cxia]a. with a single shortcut is game changing.
Those are handy, but most IDEs make at least the second two easy to do without reaching for the mouse (not sure about the first one), and for most people the other conveniences offered by IDEs are pretty attractive. I do use vim when I'm working in the terminal though, because it's solid and handles large files better than anything else I know.
I have most of the features of an IDE in my neovim config; name a feature and there's almost certainly a plugin for it!
Those are just a few small examples. One of my favorite things that vim enables for me is working with text objects. Things like functions, variables, classes, conditionals, paramters... Etc. Any action works with any text object - Want to jump to the next function in the file? Copy everything inside of a conditional? Cut everything up to (but not including) the nearest capital D on the line? Delete just the word your cursor is in the middle of (and one of the spaces around it)? Delete the current line and the N lines below it?
The motions make editing code incredibly fast, and I still have modern features like variable completion, copilot, intellisense, 'jump to definition', "hover" information, fuzzy search in project... Name a feature. I highly recommend giving it a closer look for stuff like that.
That does sound pretty good, and all without an IDE that hangs several times a day too. I haven't really taken advantage of vim's power.
Honestly if you don't use vim motions in your ide of choice, you're missing out big time. Being able to do things like "Delete everything inside these parentheses". di( or "wrap this line and the two lines below in a pair of {}" ys2j{ , or "swap this parameter with the next one" cxia]a. with a single shortcut is game changing.
I read things like this and feel like I do a different type of coding than everyone else does. I'm not generating code at this speed.
Yeah exactly this, the main bottleneck when writing code is either reading the existing code or thinking about how I want to implement some logic, not how I move my cursor and writing the code itself.
I blame my autism
For me that's not how it works. there is no way to escape mouse. People use Jira, Figma, Charles, lots of different software that just doesn't have support for Vim like keys.
Vim is good at editing a single file at a time. In my case I do like 95% reading and 5% editing. Most of the time there are bugs to fix, in a day I might read 20-30 files and change 5 lines in 5 different files.
now add one more detail. None of my coworkers know Vim so when I ask for help I need to make sure I turn Vim shortcuts otherwise they won't be able to help.
you can go on GitHub on any repo and press
.you will get vscode in your browser. Did same with my server and after that I just never want to look at Vim. If I have to use cli then I will installmicroeditorFeel it's worth noting that
ys[motion][symbol]is a plugin (vim-surround or nvim-surround at your option) and most IDEs therefore don't support itAlso as for plugins, Tim Pope's vim-argumentative is another one I love. "Swap this parameter with the next one" is
>,and "swap this parameter with the previous" is<,Ah right, I forget that that one is from vim-surround. Though I know some ides do support somewhat custom vim-configs!
I didn't know about argumentative, my swapping is powered by Tree-Sitter
Go watch a dev who is competent with vim/emacs and you will feel like a 7 year old on a tablet. I didn't give neovim a try until I was thoroughly embarrassed with my ability as a professional text editor (software dev).
Is it the motions you don't like or the editor itself? After 3 days with the motions I could never go back.
Are there any videos of this sort of editing, because honestly every single person I've watched use Vim has just been like "oh wait that's the wrong thing.. hold on." constantly. You're going to say "they aren't competent" but that's kind of the point - approximately nobody is competent in Vim because it isn't worth learning.
Even so, I'd be interested if there are any videos of pros doing real editing (not "look what I can do") on YouTube. Anyone know of any?
Jon Gjengset on Youtube is doing live coding where he uses neovim quite well. And you'll learn about Rust while you're at it.
Thanks, I'll watch some.
The Primeagon and Rene Rebe come to mind. Tsoding uses emacs and flys around. I'm still new to neovim and can say the speed at which I can transfer my ideas into the editor is significantly higher.
approximately nobody is competent in Vim because it isn't worth learning
Come on, you really think its a giant conspiracy from elitists lying about their experience? You think thousands of developers are handicapping themselves for bragging rights?
you really think its a giant conspiracy from elitists lying about their experience
Pretty much, yes.
You think thousands of developers are handicapping themselves for bragging rights?
Absolutely. That's completely normal human behaviour.
Is it the motions you don't like or the editor itself?
I like mouse more.
and only thing bottlenecking my work right now is me not my tools.
I personally die a little every time I need to take my fingers off the keyboard and reach for the mouse.
There is absolutely nothing I do in an IDE frequently enough to memorize a bunch of arcane commands, especially in 3 days. Regex solves any mass-operations. For everything else the bottleneck is how long it takes to reason about code, not how quickly I can manipulate it.
I will say that if I keep getting jobs where I have to use an IDE on a remote VM on AWS, I might prefer SSH/Vim to that bullshit. The frequency with which IntelliJ locks up all four of those virtual hamster wheel powered CPUs requiring a full restart is basically daily and sometimes multiple times a day.
Regex solves any mass-operations
No it doesn't not after you've used LSP-enabled identifier renaming. But that's the thing: Emacs, vim, helix, all have LSP integration, they're actual code editors they aren't lacking any feature that you'd expect from an IDE.
I can write regex to replace variable names in a matter of seconds despite not needing to do it very often, but I can also use regex to turn a list of data exported to csv into SQL. Or take a list of variable names and turn them into method stubs (or even full methods if they are small and consistent enough).
I don't even need to think about LSP-enabled identifier renaming. It would be handy if I find myself having to use Vim - I'm not denigrating Vim. Those features are all great if it's your IDE. But for example I had to look up what that even means because it's nothing I need to know in any other IDE. And that's really my point.
Vim has tons of power. The thing it's really lacking is discoverability. You have to know how to do everything before you can do it. Meanwhile in IntelliJ or VSCode I just find the menu and if I want to be super quick, next to the menu item is the keyboard shortcut which makes it super easy to learn how to do a thing faster while still being able to do the thing. But with vim I have to change to a completely different context and open a browser and Google how to do a thing.
That's the only problem I have with vim - it takes a huge and consistent investment to get as fast with it as I am with any other IDE out of the gate. Maybe I could eventually even get faster, but could I ever recoup that time investment? It doesn't seem like it to me since my tools are so rarely the thing slowing me down.
Again, I've no doubt vim is great once you learn it thoroughly. Nothing against vim or those who use it. Should the need arise, I'll put in the effort. But until then I'm just using it for tweaking config files and bash scripts.
I can write regex to replace variable names in a matter of seconds despite not needing to do it very often
You can write a regex to replace a string in a matter of seconds. And so can I. What neither of us can do is write it such that the replacement is limited to the identifier we want to rename (because pumping lemma), that needs syntax if not semantics-aware editing and that's exactly what LSP is for.
You're using a screwdriver as a hammer. Does it work, sure, is it advisable? Even if you don't have a hammer it might be easier and quicker to drive to the hardware store and buy one, depending on the particular nail you're dealing with.
Meanwhile in IntelliJ or VSCode I just find the menu and if I want to be super quick, next to the menu item is the keyboard shortcut
Helix: <space>? opens function search, enter "rename", "rename symbol" will be the first hit and it'll also tell you that it's bound to <space>r.
Blender: F3 instead of <space>r. Get out of here with clicking through menus. I have no idea where to find
recalculate normalsin the menus and I don't care. "face" in edit mode, probably. Nope, just checked: Edit mode, mesh->normals->recalculate [inside, outside]. Kinda makes sense while normals are a property of faces you can't calculate them without reference to a mesh as you wouldn't be able to tell outside from inside, only stuff like "face camera".This isn't so much about gui or not gui thing, both IntelliJ and VSCode come from the windows school of GUI design which says "discoverable without a manual, hotkeys are available for power users". Blender, OTOH, follows the UNIX philosophy of "RTFM, start working like a pro from the beginning it's worth it, the interface is just a suggestion, adjust it to your workflow".
Maybe I could eventually even get faster, but could I ever recoup that time investment?
How would you know without giving them an honest spin? Personally I wouldn't recommend vim, btw, lots of hysterical raisins and inconsistencies to be found there and configuration is a PITA which wouldn't even be that bad if the out of the box experience was good. Helix cleans up both the command language and the whole configuration shebang (just make sure that LSP servers are installed and you're good to go) while definitely sticking to the vi/blender style of interface design.
First I want to say this is a great comment overall. I appreciate it. But a couple notes:
What neither of us can do is write it such that the replacement is limited to the identifier we want to rename
\Widentifier\W - harder to navigate markdown than write the pattern. This would also catch references to the identifier in comments as well, though if the identifier isn't a unique word it might take a little repair, but that's rarely the case in Java where the convention is expressive identifiers.
UNIX philosophy of "RTFM, start working like a pro from the beginning [...]
That only works for small manuals. Take Git for example, because that's something I often use the CLI for. There are a huge number of things to learn out of the gate and you can't just RTFM and you're good to go. And it's really not particularly big or complex. Something as simple as cherrypicking - well first I need to log to see the commit ids. Oh not just log but --pretty-something so I can just see the commit ids. Off to Google shit to remind me how to do another thing I only do every few weeks. Compare that to a GUI where I can just right-click cherry-pick. This absolutely kills my productivity because I do so much different shit, I can't possibly remember everything that I barely use.
How would you know without giving them an honest spin?
I only have so many hours in the day to experiment. And I do, but the "cost" here is pretty high and the opportunity for return is low. We're talking about things I might do a couple of times a month.
Now it's possible I'm an idiot and I'm just slower or dumber than folks who like vim. It's also possible my roles have been really fucked up and I don't get to focus enough to get good at stuff that ought to be its own niche. All I can say is I've stuck my toe into the water and it's fucking cold. Currently I'm probably 85% GUI and 15% CLI and other keyboard-centric tools. I just use whichever is the most expedient.
I wrote a one line bash script to start my vpn because I couldn't remember each little keystroke but I can remember start-vpn.
Once again, I appreciate your comment. Upvoted. I don't know what helix is. Blender I know but isn't really a business software writing tool so I have maybe 20 hours playing around with it total. I'll look into LSP on my PC, but I might just forget I have it by the time I try to figure out what to do with it.
Take Git for example,
Git is simple in its operations, but utterly complex in the stuff you might need to do because the operations aren't mathematically clean. Things like git rerere should plainly not exist because states which require using it should be impossible to reach. And the likes of vim, or pre-2.8 blender, kinda ended up there as they grew organically, the more you tack on the more likely it is that different things don't work well with each other. Which is why I recommended helix: It's a clean-slate redesign. E.g. helix' command language is consistently <selection><action> while vim is all over the place, you end up learning things by rote instead of really exploiting the combinatorics. On the VCS side darcs is sane in principle but it's patch theory didn't really have efficiency in mind and there's a very nasty complexity explosion you can run into, pijul fixes all that: It has both a vastly superior interface without surprises (such as patches not being associative) and it's fast.
We’re talking about things I might do a couple of times a month.
The most striking difference between the likes of VSCode and Helix are not things that you do once a month, but stuff that you do all the times: Navigating and basic editing. Within the first couple of pages of going through the tutorial you'll know if navigating with hjklwWbB etc. is a thing that would save you time, whether it's worth making the interface modal, having to type i (or various other options) before actually writing text. I certainly still haven't really gotten my head around Helix' multiple cursors because I don't need it that often but VSCode wouldn't be any faster at those kind of things, either.
I’ll look into LSP on my PC, but I might just forget I have it by the time I try to figure out what to do with it.
Language Server Protocol. Actually started out on VSCode, it's how language integration works: The compiler writers (or whoever) provide functionality such as "give me docs for a certain identifier", "rename this identifier" etc. and the editor/IDE simply offers those options, display the docs in-line, etc. It quickly caught on everywhere, 20 years ago you certainly wouldn't have seen me advocate writing Java in vim because the likes of Eclipse were just way better at wrangling the language, but the times of those language-specific functions not being available in good ole code editors are over.
Tell you what. As I've just ended a contract and have some time to work on my side project while I job hunt, I'll give it a shot for the rest of this month and report back.
Blog post! Blog post!
Probably no one but you will find this there. Which is good because this is just an extremely raw first draft. I'm not asking for answers from you here. If part of my experience is "go find random people on Lemmy to help" that doesn't seem useful. But I want to share this experience which was about 90 minutes of my day, and also see how compatible the markdown here is with Joplin, which is my note-taking tool of choice. I don't know if I can stick with this man. I haven't even opened Vim yet.
I took on a challenge in a Lemmy comment to use Vim for a month. To give some context for this experience, let's start off with the relevant details of who I am.
- I'm a Java developer with 25 years of experience
- I use Ubuntu as my daily driver. I no longer have a windows computer (except as an old SSD I could swap to in an emergency), not even as a VM.
- While this might make me sound like a seasoned Linux pro, it's more the case that everything I need to do on a computer is now performed in a browser or a handful of applications. Maven, Tomcat, and Git are probably the only CLI applications I use, and Tomcat only rarely because I don't often do that kind of development for my side projects.
- I know basic linux navigation. Most everything else requires a little googling.
- I know how to exit Vim, go into insert mode, and I know how to delete 1 (dd) line or mulitple lines (dn). I know nothing else. Not even how to copy/paste.
- I like learning new things, but self-directed learning is frequently aggravating. Fortunately I also enjoy ranting about frustrations and bizarre rituals that must be performed without understanding.
So one of the first things it was suggested I would need is LSP. I don't recall what it stands for (I mean I could google it, but I might as well be honest about my ignorance, right?), but anyway I searched for "ubuntu install LSP". As one does. The top result is a thread on Reddit in r/neovim. The fuck is Neovim?
So more googling tells me Neovim is a fork of Vim 7 that some folks like and other folks aren't bothered about. There are plugins for both (why the fuck do you need a plugin for a text editor?) and some plugins work with both while others work on one or the other. Just like everything else in the Linux world, there are no fucking answers, just opinions and most of them are totally irrelvant to your environment or use case. I just want to edit some fucking code. So I'm sticking with Vim - that's the point, right?
So back to the original question, how do I install LSP and whatever plugin is needed? For anyone keeping score, I started with one question and now I have three with one... well less answered than just decided. I think I'll google "getting started with Vim and LSP"
Top result is very promising. "End goal: get working LSP in Vim for Python. Constraints: please no neovim suggestions." Other than Python instead of Java, this is perfect! This is my thread!
Check out the LSP clients heading in https://langserver.org/ There are a number of vim plugins that provide LSP integrations:
- https://github.com/natebosch/vim-lsc
- https://github.com/prabirshrestha/vim-lsp
- https://github.com/autozimu/LanguageClient-neovim (supports vim & neovim)
- https://github.com/w0rp/ale (what I currently use b/c it integrates linters as well as Language Servers & it is the best zero-config LSP plugin for vim)
- https://github.com/neoclide/coc.nvim
Most plugins will require you to do add some configuration to wire up the Language Server client (i.e. the plugin) with the language server (e.g. pyright, pylsp, ...etc). Other than that, I recommend reading plugin docs to learn how to use/configure the plugin with the language server and ask for help on the github repo if you have specific questions or run into issues/errors.
First, fuck me. It's just a bunch of random fucking repos. Who the fuck are these people? I guess this guy is endorsing ALE. Is w0rp a person? Organization? Grad student? Seasoned professional? A guy one hamburger away from a heart attack?
So anyway it looks like I also need a language server (that's the LS in LSP, 'twould seem - nice when questions answer themselves). Wait a second... That was my original question! They didn't answer how to do the thing I wanted to do, they answered how to do the other thing I didn't know I wanted to know how to do. I'm going to file this bookmark away because it's not relevant to me just now, but it looks like this will be my next question.
For now, back to google: "ubuntu install lsp java"
Okay a bunch of shit about emacs and people having or overcoming difficulties in installing it. That's not promising - seems just installing fucking LSP is about to be an ordeal. Oh! Here's a github by George W Fraser. I don't know who that is, but he uses his middle initial, so clearly someone of import and sophistication. Important side note: If he went by his full middle name, that would be a serial killer. A subtle but critical distinction.
Actually that may not be entirely true. I feel like I've seen his name before. Let's see what he has to say.
Fuck me again! He says to use vim-lsc. Wait a god damn minute... This is the same fucking question I just had non-answered by some random redditor! How do I install the god damned language server, motherfucker!?
To be continued...
There is absolutely nothing I do in an IDE frequently enough to memorize a bunch of arcane commands, especially in 3 days. Regex solves any mass-operations.
Yeah, don't memorize a bunch of arcane commands. Use regex instead!
I use regex. And it has arcane stuff I don't know, but I've memorized the rather simple basics that cover 90% of what I need to do.
Lol I like your writing. The amount of headless boxes I work on has definitely contributed to my desire to get proficient at vim. Now I feel confident when I have to edit some text on a server, rather than hoping the server has nano and the file isn't too big.
And that 3 days was how long it took until I was moving faster in neovim than vscode after 4 years of use. Though it's still perfectly valid to use vim motions in any editor you want. Theres a reason most every editor has vim motions.
I learned vim in college when I needed to edit files over ssh. It's incredibly impressive as far as cli editors go, but I just don't see how it's more productive than a well set up ide with hotkeys.
I barely know Vim, I'm an Emacs guy. Every time I pair with a colleague using an IDE, I find myself having to exercise great restraint, and not complain about how slow and fussy everything they do is. When I've worked with skilled vimmers, I have to admit that they invoke the deep magic nearly as efficiently as I do. Hotkeys? Pshaw, child's play.
it's just reliable. especially with remote work, everything is "over ssh", and you can create a very consistent environment with only a few config files
the amount of AI you can get into these IDEs is impressive, though. probably the only reason I'd ever make the switch
Most of the productivity comes from the motions; Being able to jump around the text incredibly fast, combining motions with actions and repeats, it's unparalleled in the sheer speed. I can delete an entire function with the same basic pattern Id use to delete a word.
daf-> Delete the current function my cursor is ondaw-> Delete the current wordd3af-> Delete the next three functionsStuff like that, but with everything
I only use it because that’s the only option when editing server files.
suggestion 1: use nano. Unlike vi(m) and emacs, it's meant for humans, all the command shortcuts you can execute are listed at the bottom.
suggestion 2: browse the servers in question via your file explorer (
sftp://user@serveror justsftp://server) of choice or WinSCP if you're on windows, open whatever file with your local graphical text editor of choice.My hardcore old IT dudes mocked me once like, "why install Nano? Vim is right there."
And I had to explain to them that I don't live in the terminal.
They didn't install Nano and I spent 5x longer trying to get the settings correct in Vim.
By the way, for editing server files consider nano. It's also widely available, has simpler shortcuts and displays them on the screen. It's obviously not powerful like vim, but a good match when you just need to edit a config file.
Nano is just as fiddly as vim and way less powerful when you actually figure out what you're doing though?
Ie a completely redundant piece of software that has no place being pre-installed anywhere
how is it just as fiddly as vim? it's the only one that's even half intuitive
Where "intuitive" means "shows important shortcuts on the bottom of the screen".
It's sufficient as a basic text editor, in the sense that it allows me to edit
configuration.nixto include helix (a couple of years ago, nvim) without having to learn it because the commands to save and quit are, as said, displayed on the bottom of the screen. That's about the extent of nano's feature set, anyway, it's a text editor, and a simple one as that, doesn't even try to be a code editor.When it comes to actually being intuitive though I vastly prefer the old DOS-style editors. The editor that shipped with it, as well as the likes of Turbo Pascal. "Press and release alt to get to the menu bar" type of interface: It allows you to have an at least half-way adequate feature set without requiring people to learn shortcuts. If Turbo Pascal displayed all its functions and their shortcuts at the bottom it'd take up more than half of the screen.
Really, "intuitive" when it comes to UI generally means "dumbed down, featureless". Once a program actually has features things quickly become complicated and it's counter-productive to keep things usable for users which aren't willing to set at least a modicum amount of time aside to learn the very basics. The Blender Fundamentals series is what two hours of video. Text editors can get away with less as the feature set isn't as broad but you should be willing to go through at least half of of the tutorial which is going to take 15 minutes or so, both for
vimtutorandhx --tutor.I just find the saving mechanism frustrating to use compared to vim's as an entry level user, and now as a mid-skilled user I dislike how featureless nano is - when I was first learning how to use the terminal I hated having to edit anything as I was pretty much force-fed nano with no alternative provided, but on finding vim and remembering literally 3 things (
:w,:qandi) everything became so much easier, but I definitely do have an extra bitter taste left about not being told about something much easier to use which irked me when I saw someone preaching how amazing nano isI also really don't get the hate for vim when remembering 3 things gives you as much/more functionality as nano and is a starting point for so much more functionality - intuitive doesn't mean featureless and don't try and pretend nano's shortcuts are the same as 99% of other editors (text or otherwise), in fact they're totally different, making it less intuitive
Nano is perfectly fine for me.
But I know the basics of vim if I need to use it.
I have a cheatsheet of all the necessary vim shortcuts!
:q!
:q looks like a person which jaw hit the desk. Which adequately described me when I found out how to exit vim.
That's probably what the wife was thinking I bet.
I refuse to see how vim and emacs is worth learning.
Interesting choice of words. You aren't unable to see...you refuse to. Why would you refuse knowledge?
Because I've followed tutorials and watched plenty of videos on vim and it's not worth the steep learning curve compared to the gui text editors I'm familiar with.
Cause it cool 😎
