what's up with the ToS changes regarding the vegan community?
what's up with the ToS changes regarding the vegan community?
What happened in the vegan community?
I hadn't heard about any of this until seeing that ToS post.
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The long and short of it is, One of the lemmy.world admins demoted a mod of the vegan community over a comment about how cat can be fed a 100% vegan diet with supplements and the cat will be fine.
What an asshole vegan. How stupid can you be to say you love animals and say something as dumb as this
I once gave a vegan friend of mine pause for thought when I pointed out that we probably shouldn't be keeping pets in the first place if those pets aren't in their natural habitat doing what their species evolved to do. They had cats.
A good thought, if you are planning to buy one from a breeder! Don't do that (unless you are a farmer who needs a very specific breed of working dog). By adopting instead, you can ethically have a companion, imo. The animal life already exists, so by giving it a good home, you're engaging in harm reduction. Don't forget to slay and neuter those pets!
I have 2 cats but they weren't born because of me. They're from a shelter. They can freely roam the woods behind my house and of course they kill a lot of mice (and a few birds).
The other alternatives would be keeping them locked up for life and feeding them cat food from industrialized animal farms, or putting them to sleep. I don't think those alternatives would be more ethical.So you let your cat out to exterminate local wildlife
And you call keeping them inside away from local wildlife that they can exterminate unethical
yes
My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn't clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn't clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I'm missing something important here.
Well I understand you point for sure. Mine is just larger than just the diet. If you are so vegan that you would force your diet into.you pet, shoud you have a pet at all?!! Isn't that captivity?? Why is it better?? And why even have a cat if you know there are other types of pets that are vegan by nature?
If it's a one in a 1000 cases that the cat was inherit and can't be rehomed than that cat is too old to adapt into a new diet without being very distressed. So why torture an animal if you are a lover? And if it's a new animal... well get a turtle or a bird or none, since vegans are against animal exploitation and captivity.
I'm sorry but I get really angry when people come with the "Rules only apply when it suits me" shit
Well I don't follow any "vegan" practices, so I can't really help with the motive part. I think we (internet discourse) often put "vegans" in a box that doesn't really allow for the nuances of individuals. It's not like there is a doctrine that the "vegan" follow, at least not that I'm aware of. So can you be "vegan" and care for a pet? I don't know, but I expect different people will give different answers.
Again, you're making a giant leap to torture. My point was that current scientific consensus is a vegan diet does not necessarily equal torture. So, I'm wondering why you think it does.
the vegan society has a definition of veganism
Nothing excludes the care of pets. It does exclude "animals for food" "as far as is possible and practical". One could definitely extend this to animals for a pet's diet, but I'd argue it's not practical for cats because we don't yet have solid evidence that says it's safe. I just don't think it's rational to flatly liken it to torture.
some people would argue the keeping of pets is exploitation
I think I can see it from both sides, but it seems situational to me. Breeding cats sounds bad. For government animal shelters that run out of resources, I think the adoption of an animal that would otherwise be killed is logically consistent with the generic vegan philosophy.
The most popular take among vegans (and this is coming from a vegan myself) is that breeding animals is awful, but adopting an animal from a shelter is great.
There's a lot of reasons that vegans are not fans of pet ownership, mostly because there are very minimal regulations in place regarding their treatment. I'm sure everyone knows someone who doesn't treat their pet well.
However, once an animal is born into this world, it already exists, and there's only two options. Either we can care for it, or let it die.
That's why vegans are okay with adopting pets but not with buying animals from mills. Buying animals from mills incentives the breeders to make more, taking them from shelters doesn't profit / incentivize anyone. Let's stop making more animals but take care of the ones that already exist.
Gish-gallop
what's wrong with it?
Cats are obligate carnivores. They need meat. A vegan cat is a dead cat.
My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn't clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn't clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I'm missing something important here.
sure. but the above post stated with supplements. so if the food is palatable and nutritional to the cat, then what does it matter?
A person understands the reason they're eating only plants with no animal byproducts. An animal doesn't. An animal is just confused and irritated that their food was changed for the worse by their owner. If their diet and mountain of supplement pills/powders did not actually meet their dietary needs because it wasn't an exact match for their regular food or natural prey, they would still end up malnourished. And not every cat's dietary needs are the same or stay the same as they age.
Malnourished or not, you also wouldn't be able to stop your cat from finding a mouse or insect which snuck into your home and devouring them to enhance their compromised diet. You cannot make a carnivore vegan, you can only abuse them into living in a way they do not naturally live and do not want to live, until they find a way to avoid you for just long enough to go against your wishes and savage another animal, as is their instinctive nature.
Furthermore, do you really think animals have no joy in what they eat, that that's only a human quality? Nutrition doesn't matter to the animal, they just want to eat what they want to eat. Cats almost never turn down an offer of cream or milk despite 90% or more of them being lactose intolerant. It's not nutrients their body needs or can absorb, and actively makes them feel ill. But they want it anyway because it's tasty and they aren't able to consider the consequences of their actions as far in advance as humans can.
Edit: In fact, going off that same point but for humans, you could probably make a human live off some kind of tasteless nutrient bar that gives everything you could need, but it wouldn't mean they'd enjoy it. Oh wait, we did do that before, as a cruel punishment for prisoners in the US, fucking nutraloaf!
and if it was palatable?
You're still making them do something they didn't consent to. They will still chew on bugs and small prey animals (when they get access to them, which isn't often for indoor cats), because it's etched into their behavior. They will take every opportunity they get. You can't make a cat vegan, you can only force a cat on a vegan diet. Can't you understand the qualitative difference there?
The stupidity of some vegas has no boundaries. It makes me so sad to know those poor animals are being torture. You are right but we can't really debate dumb
You’re still making them do something they didn’t consent to.
Bro do you like not understand the concept of pets
Don't talk like you understand it either, since you clearly don't.
Giving a dog/cat shots in doing something to them they didn't consent to.
Your logic is completely absent
do cats consent to eating cat biscuits?
Why have an animal to.torture it? Get a parrot of a fish then. Don't adopt an animal, that can't understand, and push stupid human values to it. A person that says wants to "protect" animal should respect nature. but you know... vegans are jot the best at logical thinking
if the animal enjoys the food and it has all the nutrition the animal needs then how is it torture?.
Do you also rant at people who keep their cats inside against their will?
You keep making this logical jump that a cat would enjoy eating shitty food with supplements. They would not. A cat would enjoy some chicken.
but what if they did enjoy eating the biscuits? Would you knock the food out of their mouths?
Stop with the gish-gallop already
It's pretty bloody obvious what you're doing
Gish gallop is a series of untrue statements said in rapid fire that the other person does not have time to refute.
you don't understand the word.
I hope the RSPCA, ASPCA, Whatever your countries local equivalent is looks into you with that sort of mindset
if the animal has nutritious food and enjoys the food then the RSPCA would be fine.
the RSPCA published the following information:
it is possible to develop a plant-based diet for cats, these need to be carefully formulated to meet the unique nutritional requirements of the cat and be appropriately supplemented with essential nutrients
Gish gallop
so the RSPCA would have zero issue with a cat on a vegan diet as long as the cat had adequate nutrition and was eating palatable food.
any argument with that?
I don't think palatable nutritional vegan cat food exists, at least none with any empirical evidence its safe for cats long-term.
but if it did, would you have any objection?
I would encourage people contemplating it's use to instead get any of the many herbivore companions instead of trying to make the square peg fit in the round hole.
but I'm asking a simple question: if the cat enjoys the food, and it has all the nutrition the cat requires for a healthy life, would you have any objection?
If it actually enjoyed it, sure. But I believe it would be a substantial lowering of their quality of life. Seeing the difference between how happy my cats are with their normal food vs wet cat food vs churu treats, it's plain as day they have preferences. While they can survive with proper nutrients, they won't have as fulfilling a life by limiting their food source in such a manner.
I won't talk about what's natural since my cats aren't catching any salmon or taking down a cow on their own, but I'm not getting a pet just to enforce a restrictive diet on them.
Gish-gallop
I don't think you know what this means.
Yes I do, only in online comments you can't speak while another person is talking unless it's a livestream chat
The online comment version of basically responding over and over again to eventually tire the other person out
talking to tire someone out is not Gish gallop.
So you don't understand the term.
here:
The Gish gallop (/ˈɡɪʃ ˈɡæləp/) is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm an opponent by presenting an excessive number of arguments, with no regard for their accuracy or strength, with a rapidity that makes it impossible for the opponent to address them in the time available.
Lol, are you the demoted mod
nope.
Cats require a few nutrients which aren't naturally present in plants, such as taurine. Fortunately, those nutrients are easily synthesised, and added to vegan cat foods in order to make them nutritionally complete.
I thought the issue was bioavailability of those nutrients was called into question?
oh god WHY HAVE A DUCKING CAT?!!! Get a bird or a turtle please!
Look at the research before getting emotional.
While it seems dogs need atleast some meat, the scientific consensus is cats can be healthy with a vegan diet and proper supplementation.
I’m not vegan nor do I have a cat, but this debate interested me and I’ve read a couple literature reviews and big papers on the subject.
Cats aren’t what they were 15’000 years ago. Domestication has turned them into an entirely different species.
The thing I'm wondering whenever I see this discussion is:
Should a vegan have a pet that kills for fun?
Should they keep it inside all day to stop it from killing?
I don't get why a vegan would want to have a cat at all.
Unless you live somewhere with little native wildlife the general rule amongst conservationists is that cats should not be let outside. They have already contributed to the extinction of many bird species.
That being said, in america, people let their cats out in general. In western europe, not so much.
Could you please tell that to the people living in my corner of western Europe? Would be nice not to have to shovel car sit out of my garden anymore.
Cats aren’t what they were 15’000 years ago. Domestication has turned them into an entirely different species.
Long pork is often a euphemism for people meat.
So you're just fine with using and abusing an animal when it gets you what you want. Gotcha.
This is a nice comment explaining why the vegan ideology is just bored people feeling morally superior
Cats are obligate carnivores. They have evolved to eat meat and only meat. A vegan diet can and will kill them.
if cats are carnivores then why does mine eat corn every chance it gets, sometimes going for fresh corn over refrigerated steak?
Same reason people sometimes chew on paper.
Actually if you're american, corn is also in cat food because it's freaking everywhere so cats can associate it with food
My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.
I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn't clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn't clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?
"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."
Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.
Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.
Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I'm missing something important here.
My opinion is based on fact. Alex Whittaker did a great takedown of that study, have an ABC brief
That article basically says what the study says. There is no real evidence that a vegan diet is healthier for cat; they point to owner bias as the cause of any perception that these studies show it is healthier.
My point was that there is no evidence that a vegan diet is impossible for a cat. I wouldn't try it because we don't know it's safe, but we also don't know that it's necessarily unsafe. I'm just bothered by people who jump to "vegan diet equals dead/tortured cat" because we don't have any evidence that supports such a dramatic claim.
Nah mate. You literally said " there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse" and then tried to link to a faulty science study that got debunked.
Vegan diets for cats are notoriously difficult due to the fact it runs completely counter to the diet a cat has evolved to process. If you're so dedicated to the vegan ideal that you will attempt to force an obligate carnivore - key word obligate - to consume a diet completely contrary to its digestive system then why are you keeping a pet in the first place?
Sorry for my imprecise response. The article you linked is talking about the "Vegan versus meat-based cat food..." study specifically. I was refering back to the study I referenced in a previous comment, "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review.". The systematic review is essentially a big picture analysis of 16 other studies, 6 specifically about cats. The "Vegan versus meat-based cat food..." study was not included.
The systematic review says there is not enough evidence at this point to say whether a vegan diet is better or worse. I still stand behind "there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse".
I'm not putting any pets on a vegan diet. First, I don't personally follow any vegan practices even for myself. Secondly, it's risky at this point, and I don't have enough resources (time, money, attention to detail) to minimize those risks. I keep pets because animal shelters kill animals that they do not have the capacity to support. I can imagine others, even those who practice vegan lifestyles, would commonly cite a similar motive.
Jesus, stop downvoting someone for asking a question what the fuck is wrong with you people
This is 100% not an innocent question.
this is a very emotive issue. apparently cats have to consent to everything. and their life with humans must be 100% natural. otherwise it is animal abuse.
Oh, you were downvoted because people correctly detected a sealion.
potentially. I have no idea what this means.
Me neither but now that I do I'm very happy so thank you.
funny!
What's wrong with depriving a cat of something it has evolved to need and can die or be in bad health without?
Wtf is happening in the comments. Why are people getting so insane over this topic over and over again? If there's cat food out there that's nutritional complete, cats like it, and it happens to be plant based - so what? The only two reasons to object are if someone is 100% convinced such a product doesn't and cannot exist or if they're entirely ideological about it. And if we have to apply the naturalistic fallacy that only the natural way can be morally okay, why of all things argue about pet food? I really, really don't get it why people get so intensely emotional about it.
If there's cat food out there that's nutritional complete, cats like it, and it happens to be plant based - so what?
Because the vegan cat food that claims to be nutritionally complete isn't. Whenever these brands have their products studied they turn out to not be nutritionally complete. Feeding them to a cat is abuse.
So they should simply start producing one that is. Problem solved. No law of nature prevents us from supplementing the right amount of taurine and b12, so there is no reason to be irrational about it.
It’s actually more complicated than that. Of the like 6 studies done since the 90s, several found that cats didn’t absorb supplements in the same way, ie with a supplemented diet for taurine they would not find taurine in the cats plasmas after 6 weeks
And that’s the problem with this whole “but it CAN be done! I’m special!” Attitude. It leads to comments like yours that boil down to “the magic capitalism machine should just make it happen cause of course it’s possible” when the tiny amount of research done found that it’s only questionably possible, and is mostly a shitty idea.
It’s this pushing shitty ideas because someone feels like a moral superior I’m tired of.
Taurine should be the easiest to supplement, since it's already widely synthesized to supplement traditional pet food with. Three decades old studies really shouldn't be the only thing we're looking at before we're going at each others necks about something.
It's this shitting on new ideas because someone feels like a moral superior I'm tired of.
And ironically this is exactly what vegans are often blamed for btw. People turn off their brain, get all emotional, and feel justified on hating someone for muder, abuse, and torture (all claims from this very comment section) without the slightest bit of nuance. I just searched for "vegan cat food nutrition study" and very randomly picked the first search result, which brought me to a study from 2023 showing that cats fed a vegan diet were overall even healthier. So at the very least we have to agree that this isn't as clear cut as many here claim with utmost confidence.
You found a study where they asked cat owners to self report all the data. As demonstrated in this thread and others, vegans are divorced from reality when it comes to what cats actually need to eat, so I’d say that’s not the most reliable source.
Additionally:
“This research and its publication open access was funded by food awareness organisation ProVeg International (https://proveg.com). AK received this award ID: Oct2019-0000000286”
Riiiiiiiight….
Then look for a recent study yourself. I certainly won't waste my time, since I hardly believe you would chance your mind even with the most robust data available. You've made up your mind.
There's no reason why supplementation shouldn't be possible. After all we're already doing that. Obviously we can test for it (since so many people in this comment claimed that vegan brands were tested and found to be insufficient), so nothing stops us from putting taurine into the cat food to the point where it reaches the required amounts. It's that simple. If you need to stay offended than for all means keep going. Just know that you behave just like the vegans you're so annoyed about, and it's showing.
There's no reason why supplementation shouldn't be possible. After all we're already doing that
Zooming in on this statement right here, we’re already doing that, and it doesn’t work.
Obviously we can test for it (since so many people in this comment claimed that vegan brands were tested and found to be insufficient), so nothing stops us from putting taurine into the cat food to the point where it reaches the required amounts
Except for the parts where it doesn’t work
It's that simple
It really really isn’t.
If you need to stay offended than for all means keep going.
I'm not offended by anything, I think the whole discussion is comically stupid. The research done into the subject is lacking, because it's a bad idea and everyone involved knows that. I guess there are worse things for an internet forum to be arguing about.
Just know that you behave just like the vegans you’re so annoyed about, and it’s showing.
I feed my cats the food they need to survive, fortunately.
we’re already doing that, and it doesn’t work.
We absolutely do, taurine is in basically every commercially available cat food out there. Chances are you are already feeding your cat synthetic taurine.
I feed my cats the food they need to survive, fortunately.
So do I, I'm just really annoyed at the intellectually dishonesty at play here. The position you're arguing in favor of is almost impossible to verify. Can you prove that is is impossible to create a nutritionally complete vegan cat food? No, obviously you can't. Even if every single brand currently available would be proven to be insufficient (which I seriously doubt) it'd still be a wild claim that it couldn't be done. Does that stop you from harshly judging everyone with a different opinion? For some reason, no.
Feel free to correct me if you do have a reliable source that explains why it's impossible to supplement vegan cat food while being perfectly fine for conventional ones.
If only this was readily researchable....
But yeah, animal cruelty gets people het up. This is the internet, don't fuck with cats
What should stop a company from supplementing the right amount of all the nutrients listed? The article simply claims it's not nutritionally complete, but that would only be an argument against the brands currently available and tested, not against the idea in principle.
Studies have shown that cats do not absorb adequate amounts of these nutrients from synthetic supplemented versions, it's why vegan pet food that is technically nutritionally complete in the bag isn't when it's in the cat.
Vegans should instead opt for a non-carnivorous pet
That's bullshit and you know it, otherwise you would have at least attempted to back up that claim.
A very short internet research attempt shows: Synthetic taurine is considered efficacious for use in cat, dog and carnivorous fish.
Maybe no one in the history of the internet has argued about this and it's just time for people to duke it out. I thought everything was settled about cats by now, but maybe not.
I've seen this exact argument before and it was just as heated. Ironically the same people getting annoyed at vegans for being emotional and judgemental are incredibly fast to scream abuse and murder when it comes to cat food.
okay, thanks. fairrr
Good
