Public Transit my beloved 😍
Public Transit my beloved 😍
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I'd love to see someone bring a shopping cart amount of groceries on a bus or train
You don't. If you live where cars are not needed, e.g. Tokyo, you'll just walk to your nearest small grocer and get the ingredients you need. That's what I did when I stayed in Japan for work.
So you have to essentially grocery shop before every meal? That doesn't sound super efficient. Especially when cooking for a family.
This also still doesn't help with throwing like a big party where you need a large amount of food.
Edit: So yes, all the responses are basically shop every day. I wish I had that kinda time.
Just walk in to the local shop on your way to/from wherever else you're going (or just to get out of the house for two minutes if you've been working from home) ... that way you can have fresh ingredients every day, and you're walking a bit regularly so you don't get overweight easily
I used to buy ingredients for my meals every second day while living in Europe. Always what I wanted or was on sale. No meal planning for the week and making a huge order / weekend mall spree.
It's super simple. You stop there on your way home. When I was in Berlin, I would generally hit up the grocery store a few times a week. I did not have to worry about produce going bad because it would be used with one of my meals on the next couple of days.
Typical car brained take.
How do disabled people who can't walk far get their groceries then? 🤔
Delivery services, probably
Or, if we're changing cities already we could make more accessible homes and public transit. If someone in a wheelchair can't get onto a train you've made the train wrong.
I traveled up and down the East Coast with my dad when he was in a wheelchair. Every city was a little different but Amtrak has made their trains this way. A special ramp is needed, which has to be fetched by someone. Baltimore was the worst about it, but they did get us on just fine, and kicked a guy out of the handicapped starting. New York City was incredible. Dude hung out with us until our train showed up and made sure we got on and situated before regular boarding started. Though I think he had dealt with something similar personal and took it upon himself. DC was at about the level you'd expect and was pretty pleasant.
Great to hear, that is actually a lot better than I would have expected. It would still be ideal if you could use it as easily as someone not using a wheelchair but we do have to live in the real world and accommodating everyone is complicated and expensive.
Man. There's a Korean drama on Netflix... I think it was All of Us Are Dead. The apartment building had a bodega-like grocery either on the first floor or connected to it. If we're going to redesign, can it be like that, maybe?
Absolutely it could be like that, mixed use buildings are something we really lack in North America and are the lifeblood of a city
And that really worries me. The government should offer free options for people like that. Uber Eats and Instacart exploits the hell out of people like that.
And that's something we can look into, but it's no reason to stop walkable towns.
No one said it was.
See, I knew one of you motherfuckers was going to come in here and make it obvious you just don't care about the actual facts, you've already made up your minds and seek to make up everyone else's minds for them.
Maybe instead of treating every single discussion of anything like an epic shitfight, you all should just pool your money together, buy your own land, incorporate it as a separate county, and build your own walkable cities and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.
holy shit dude why are you so mad?
Because you all are doing nothing but demonstrating for us once again the negativity and childish banality of the human condition, and I'm tired of it.
The immaturity, the short-sightedness, the complete lack of empathy or consideration for anyone who disagrees with you -- you all are attacking people, not just me, who are calling out walkable cities for being unviable for disabled people. One stupid motherfucker here even suggested people like that use delivery services to get their groceries instead of being able to drive, knowing Instacart and Uber Eats exploits the disabled and isn't available everywhere. No consideration that it's unfair for disabled people who can't walk far regardless. No consideration that what you want isn't completely viable because different people with different needs exist, nothing.
Y'all are just angry other people are opposing you because you think us chucklefucks online disagreeing with you is a barrier to what you want and I'm tired of putting up with it.
So until you change, I'm going to be angry at you, and if you don't like me being angry at you for your own behavior, that's a you problem. I don't need you to listen to me or even like me, but you apparently need my approval for your stupid policies and ill-thought-out ideas, and therefore you need me a whole lot more than I need you. The only one hurt by my anger is you. You're the one complaining about it.
You're fucking political parasites and I'm tired of it.
Now let's watch your dumb ass prove my point and do nothing but address my anger and my emotions while not addressing the needs of the disabled people who would be thrown under the bus with car bans at all. 🙄
Chucklefuck is such a great word.
Pot meet kettle lol. People are making actual arguments about how a walkable city is better for every class of person, not just one specific class, and you're throwing them all out, without entertaining the thoughts at all, and with a fair bit of vitriol.
Any situation where the average person doesn't need any special equipment (a car) to get their things done is going to be better for everyone. As a off the top of the head example, when no one else NEEDS to drive, for instance, the people who do need to can more readily. Or they can utilize other, cheaper, specialized equipment, like powered wheelchairs more easily, because everything is within walking distance and the streets aren't packed with people in cars.
That's not what's happening but thanks for showing the class you haven't been paying attention at all.
You know, if all you invested a fifth of a third of a quarter of the energy you're investing trying to get something over on me onto building these walkable cities you supposedly care about, we'd all be on Saturn by now.
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You accuse others of childish banality yet the only condescending jackass in this discussion is you as you lob insults and talk down to people.
News flash, walkable cities and public transit are better for disabled people than cars. Have a person in a wheel chair try to drive a car. Lets a blind person peel out on a motorcycle why don’t you you dipshit? Know how easy it is for a paraplegic to use a subway? They take a ramp or elevator down then roll on and off the cars as they please. Know how a blind person can get around without needing a friend with a car? They can make their way to a bus station where they can be taken across town.
Oh and finally, a “car ban”? Who mentioned flatly banning cars you disingenuous idiot? We want to design infrastructure for more than just cars, not ban them.
One way to come across as childishly banal and negative is to rant at someone for how bad of a person they are because of your own idiotic assumptions about their position.
You’re an insanely unserious person so log off and look into what people are actually advocating for instead of swallowing gallons of bullshit from people that know better. It’s unbecoming of someone with your smug sense of superiority.
And here's stupid motherfucker number 1 coming down the hall and up to the stage to prove my point.
This isn't a conversation about your feelings or mine, this is a discussion about the viability of walkable cities for the disabled. And they're not viable for people like that and never truly can be, not without cars. So unless you assume every resident is riding around in a wheelchair and plan accordingly, which you can't do because most major cities were built way before the ADA and similar laws in other countries were passed -- even before the wheelchair and walkers were invented.
What you want requires trillions of dollars in investment you are never going to get. Not unless you do what I told you to. I gave you stupid assholes a solution, but you're still not listening. Why?
Because for you, this is all about your feelings and not about building a better world at all.
You're up in here writing walls of text to personally attack me, like you always do, because all you care about are your stupid fucking emotions. And I emphasize your emotions.
You clearly don't give a fuck about the old people who will be trapped in their houses, isolated and alone, because they can't make use of anything other than a car.
You don't care about the motherfuckers in wheelchairs who you will be effectively imprisoning either.
You sure as fuck don't care about me other than "How can we exploit this asshole's anger to make them look bad and win the argument?" because all this is about for you is winning an epic battle against me that is only happening in your own head, because I hurt your feelings by telling you facts you didn't want to hear, and now you're getting revenge.
I called you stupid assholes and you, personally, a stupid motherfucker and you will not display one bit of temerity or maturity at all by ignoring it; in fact, that's all you're going to talk about because all you care about is how you feel. Not the actual topic of debate.
And that's why I don't like you, and I will continue to be an asshole to you until you change, and not before. Like I said, you need me a whole hell of a lot more than I need shallow, stupid, petty, selfish, emotional and violent scumbags like you.
How do disabled people who can't drive get their groceries?
About 2 seconds of critical thinking leads you to this magical solution called "someone helps them" in both cases.
I'm not like super pro car or anything but your argument in my experience doesn't really hold up. I work at a farm and we have a lot of elderly folks come in and shop by themselves. They drive themselves and shop themselves but I doubt they could do that with a walker and if they didn't have a car I doubt they'd be finding a different way to come out here.
Rural life is a whole different beast from urban. I won't ever make the argument that rural living people shouldn't have cars. So yeah, plus one for that argument.
Rural life definitely, but I'm in suburbia hahaha. I just can't imagine public transportation being able to replace what a car can do for elderly people
If the individual is so bad off they can't manage to get on a (more robust than we currently have) form of public transit, I really question if they should be driving. The simple fact of life is that at a certain point, maintaining complete independence isn't a reality. This isn't a bad thing, we should be moving towards embracing building the systems we need for people to get help at that stage of life.
These people have no problem driving or taking care of themselves, I'm sure plenty shouldn't be driving, but doing something like shopping and then walking your groceries back home simply isn't an option for a lot of people even if public transportation was more robust. Sure, past a certain point everyone loses independence, but there are plenty that don't need to that you are advocating should
“someone helps them” Who?
Friends. Family. Building facilities. Government programs.
The simple fact is that at some point, people just can't be completely independent. It's the nature of growing old. This is only really a problem because we have such a strict independence culture, where if you can't do for yourself, you may as well just die, society doesn't have time for you.
If we recontextualize this, and see growing old and more feeble not as some personal failing and instead as the symbol of a long life, if we start looking out for those around us, and if we start building up the facilities we need to allow people to gracefully enter elder-hood without stigma, we'd all be a bit better off.
“Someone”, duh!
And that just shows a lack of empathy or life experience.
You can't always get help so you need to be able to get where you want to go on your own, and that means disabled people need cars.
In what world is a disabled person able to board a car on their own but not a bus or train? And in what world are those busses and trains not staffed with people to help? Are we talking self-driving busses and cars with wheelchair driving options as a standard?
Edit: Seems the response is for the disabled person to: JuSt SpEnD mOrE mOnEy ; but we couldn't possibly be bothered to spend more on public transit to make it more accessible.
At least in my country, bus drivers that need to help people in the wheelchair to get up on the bus are already at the edge of their patience. Don't even talk about helping them stuff seven bags of groceries as well. That's why unfortunately, taxis are still a necessity
I think the best solution, if we can redesign our cities, is to incorporate more mixed use buildings, or at least more mixed zoning. Why even have to have a bus if your building has a connected grocery and 3 other small shops on the same block.
These issues only really exist because everything is SO spread out. We have strict zoning regulations that mean having a grocery in a residential area is at best a challenge, and realistically impossible. This means we have to go further for the most mundane daily tasks, and this means we need more robust transportation, including cars.
ETA:rereading this it looks like I'm making an argument for no cars, buses or anything. I'm absolutely pro expanding public transportation, merely stating that if things were slightly different, you could eliminate the bus entirely from this situation specifically
The car is in their driveway, where is the bus?
If we want piblic transport, and I certainly do, we need better aguments than this one.
Sure this applies for suburban or rural life. Everyone has the space to have a car there. In a city, which is what my entire argument stems around (you can see elsewhere in this thread where I state I wouldn't ever dream of taking cars from rural people), it's more like "the car is in the parking garage connected to the apartments. And the bus stop is just in front of the apartments, maybe down on the corner"
I didn't say it had to be an individual who needed to help. It could be any number of programs, services, or even yeah, individuals.
I mentioned mixed use buildings in another part of this thread, something like an apartment complex with a bodega-like grocery on the first floor or directly attached. What about moving more towards that kind of building? There are a ton of solutions that don't require cars.
With their wheelchair?
How do disabled people who can't drive get their groceries in a car centric city?
If you can drive a car, you can probably also drive an electric wheelchair. This should be sufficient to take public transit or go to a nearby store.
By having specially designed cars that enable them to drive.
Even the ones who by the nature of their disability can't do anything mentally or visually taxing, like drive, don't disprove or negate the need for cars because everyone else with disabilities need them to get around. Public transport simply isn't suitable enough for them.
Even old blind people who can't pass driving tests use Uber or Lyft, because public transport simply isn't safe or suitable enough for them, especially during grocery runs.
You seem to live in a car centric city with really shitty public transportation. My city has decent regular bus service and for those who need extra help, they have more handy centric busses that will directly pick people up on a schedule. I think even the tiny town I grew up in has a service that does the same because there are tons of older people that are not able to drive. We also have a shuttle service to the train station if you live too far away from one.
There are solutions to these problems that tons of cities have had no problem implementing. It sounds like either yours is not one of them or possibly it is not a service you need so you just plain do not think about it.
Even old blind people who can't pass driving tests use Uber or Lyft, because public transport simply isn't safe or suitable enough for them, especially during grocery runs.
You are assuming a car centric city here. In a walking and transit oriented city, it is safe and suitable for blind people to be independent and move by themselves. Only cars make the cities unsafe and the lack of transit makes it unsuitable to use something else than a car.
And I am assuming that because they are the norm you're complaining about in the first place.
If they're not, then go move to one.
It's as simple as that. But you don't get to demand other people lose their cars just because you don't like them, especially disabled people that will always need them as no walkable city will replace the individual autonomy, carrying capacity and convenience a car provides.
Public transport simply isn't suitable enough for them.
Ding dong, you're wrong. Walkable cities are more accessible for everyone than the carcentric dystopia.
Ding dong, you're wrong.
I have an older retired mother who uses a cane and can easily move about once she gets into the store by using the cart to stabilize herself. Taking public transportation is a no-go where she lives, because the one thing that I haven't seen mentioned here yet, is crime. As an older woman with a walking aid, she's the prime target for criminals, who also know old and elderly tend to not trust banks and use cash.
I do what I can to help and support her, however this is not always feasible, and in her words, she'd "be damned if she wasn't able to get out of the house and do her damn shopping herself".
And she's able to drive just fine. But I guess she should give up her car, her freedom, so you can feel better about, whatever the fuck you think it is that getting rid of cars will fix.
I said walkable. Didn't mention public transport. But go and fly off the handle, you brainwashed twat.
Public transport simply isn't suitable enough for them.
Ding dong, you're wrong. Walkable cities are more accessible for everyone than the carcentric dystopia.
And you literally quoted someone talking about public transport, so there's that. Can't wait to see what fun things you come up with to call me this time.
You can't have carcentric walkable cities numbnut.
Uh, ever heard of commercial and residential zoning? You can have a Bodega down the street and a big box store 5 miles away. Both can coexist in the same city. Unless you're talking in absolutes, which seems like pretty poor city planning. Not sure where you're from, but in the US such things exist.
Loving the insults too, BTW. Keep them coming!
Walkable isnt "walkable" for someone who has trouble walking. Brainwashed? Hmm. Explain. And twat? There's two reasons you'd use that word, you're either European or Australian, and if that's the case, I'll take twat and wear it as a badge of honor. The other case is you're American and around my age or older where that word would be in our vernacular, in which case, at least you didn't call me a cunt, because then I'd be really sad.
At 85 years old my Mum can't drive or walk, she does her own shopping with an electric mobility scooter and occasionally needs the help of others ... that works fine for her because she lives in what might be called a "15 minute city" these days.
We don't. They want us to die.
I'm a bit floored by this being a question at all, my condolences. Depending on the disability, a bike, e-bike, mobility scooter, or microcar.
So in other words, disabled people still need cars -- they can't ride bikes or e-bikes and scooters are too small for them -- and you didn't think about what you're saying.
What? I said it depends on the disability. Depending on why you can't walk to the store, a bike or e-bike might work. Not every disability is the same. I know people that can't walk to the store but can use an e-bike.
How is a mobility scooter too small for a disabled person? It's literally designed for the purpose. And by Microcar I mean what you see in Amsterdam as microcars, not 'a small car'.
As a disabled person who can't drive, I ride my ebike everywhere. I can easily fit a week's worth of groceries because it's a cargo bike, which makes it even easier to balance and steer because of the way it's weighted.
Im lucky to live in an area that is becoming increasingly bike friendly. 10 years ago I barely left the house because it wasn't safe to ride on the road, and I couldn't afford uber/taxi, and there were no accessible bus stops near me.
When something is more than 20km away I will take a bus or an uber - but there's no reason that uber couldn't be a microcar, or a light vehicle (like an electric version of the old milkman lorries) for those that need ramp access or electric wheelchair transport.
At the moment in many places, disabled people are already forced to use paratransit systems because adaptive cars and taxi services are prohibitively expensive.
There will always be a need for some people, and some communities to have and depend on cars. The goal is to reduce this to as few people as possible by making it easier for those that are able to choose other methods.
Generally there is at least one bus stop or train stop by a grocery store. The amount of walking is roughly the same.
The reason you haul entire shopping carts at once is because the trip to the grocery store is a big planned deal. That’s also the reason people buy bulk items and then let half of them expire.
The “ideal” for bikers and train riders would be easier, quicker trips to small stores to get ingredients for the next few days. I find I’m able to fit most of my needs into one pannier.
This changes sharply if you're buying for more people than just yourself.
The reason I haul entire shopping carts at once is because I don't want to waste time shopping every day. A big 2-hour haul per month vs. 1-2 20-minute trips to the local corner konbini every day. Plus some of the bigger bulk stores deliver (this is Hinode, Tokyo; rural ones probably don't).
Buying in bulk is far less expensive: you pay less (duh), but you spend a lot less time on it too. If I'm buying groceries just-in-time and the nearest shop doesn't have the ingredient I need that day, I have to go to a different shop for that one item. Lots of time wasted, and a lot of stress on top. You can't change your mind later either, because you've already bought ingredients for that one meal. So I prefer to have things buffered in stock, and resupply in advance. You also use far less plastic packaging that way, e.g. buying a 25-liter premix syrup canister instead of hundreds of coke bottles.
Not to mention that the grocery stores that are well located are usually more expensive. The cheaper options exist in less number and so it makes it less convenient or sometimes not possible at all to get to on a normal work day.
You can save a lot of money that way.
And I’m in Europe FYI.
You save the money and spend it on a car?
My experience is different. If I go for grocery once a week I buy a lot of stuff which rots or expires. If I buy it daily I just buy what I need, and what I want that day.
Yes that’s how it works. You save some money and spend it in other shit.
Also I don’t have a car just so I can go get groceries. I have a car for a multitude of other reasons and I can get groceries. Driving 5 mins to a supermarket has an insignificant cost, and if that supermarket is cheaper then you can save multiples of that.
Regarding the stuff expiring, that’s just your experience. I have the opposite. There’s plenty of non perishable shit that I can get when it’s on sale because I can carry a ton of it if I came by car. Meanwhile if I go shopping by foot and I need laundry detergent I’ll just have to get whatever they have at that time. You can save a ton of money like that.
For easily perishable food yes buying regularly is better but that also means a ton of wasted time going to the supermarket very frequently even if to get only a few items.
There are ways to do this in a walkable city.
If a grocery store is within walking distance why not make a trip of it with the whole family? Many hands make light work. Or, just because a city is human focused instead of car focused doesn't mean no cars at all (at least in the way I would implement it) you could rent a car for a few hours every couple of weeks.
Obviously these ideas won't work for everyone but they're just off the top of my head, and unfortunately there is no system that will work for everyone. We just have to try for works better.
I've done that. You just bring something appropriate to carry it in.
Although now that I live closer to a smaller grocer, I just walk twice.
I will say that I've been able to bring 3-4 grocery bags onto a bus, which is enough to last me around 2 weeks. I've done this fairly consistently (basically whenever it's too cold/snowy to bike) for the last couple years. It might not be possible for a family without more than one person making the trip, but for an individual it can definitely work.
I don't mean this the way it's going to sound, but...
I'm happy it works for you, and you're happy with it. It doesn't work for everyone.
I completely understand that, and I know that's why a lot of people need cars. I was primarily responding to the parent comment claiming that it wouldn't work for anyone because it'd be impossible to bring enough groceries with you on the bus/train.
Oh, I see now. Sorry about that. Yes it's possible to use public transport in cases where you don't need much and the time necessary isn't outlandish. I think I was conflating several messages in my head when I responded to yours. Glad to see some people are able to be civil here.
Three or four bags of groceries is totally doable on a bus or train.
Two weeks worth of shopping for a family would be a lot more than three or four bags.
A week's worth for my family of four is generally two bags. Shopping for more than that just leaves a bunch of rotten produce.
In civilized countries, it's common. Even on bicycles, by the way.
Buses where I live have a cargo rack at the front. If you had four bags of shopping (though that's really quite a lot - the bags are big) you would tie the tops closed and leave them in one of the racks until you reached your destination
If you had four bags of shopping (though that’s really quite a lot - the bags are big) you would tie the tops closed and leave them in one of the racks until you reached your destination
Along with the 75 other passengers doing the same thing?
And what if it's paper goods and raining like fuck?
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It's rare that more than three people on a bus are doing shopping
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Carry an umbrella, and isn't everything wrapped in plastic now?
It's rare because everyone else is shopping by car
If we got rid of cars then it woudln't be rare anymore. Think!Nope. Lots of people can walk to the shops. We have suburban centres typically 15 minutes walk away
Can doesnt mean do. Most people drive distances that are longer than 8 minutes.
If the argument to give up the car for shopping and to replace it with a bus is countered with the amount of bags on the bus, then your counter to that cannot be to just walk.- Did you forget what you were arguing?
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This is ok though, going once per 14days for that 90% of stuff and having your car for that is ok. Otherwise if you run out of something, hop to your nearest store. Also here some of my friends and family are not reachable via public transport so I use car for that. But dont use it for commute every day, going to the beach/mountains every weekend, going to the store every other day, taking kids to school and back etc. For many this is completely doable but people are lazy
Why would anyone do that?
Grocery delivery is quick and cheap to 99% of UK. Also I've been on a bus plenty of times with enough shopping to last two humans a week.
Problem is the people who have 5 mouths to feed and want enough food for 3 weeks. In that case, get a delivery
A delivery huh? I wonder by what mode if transport that would be delivered....
Take a few seconds to think before replying.
What's better, 30 deliveries in 1 van or 30 deliveries in 30 cars?
Okay but this isn't what happens. When using services like instacart they will batch only maybe two or three orders in a car. Unless there are other services that I'm not aware of that will batch more?
I don't think grocery translates well to mass delivery because it increases rates of spoilage and damaged produce.
I live in UK and all the major supermarkets do 20-50 deliveries in one fully refrigerated van. You do have to book it a couple of days in advance but that's the cost of the service, obviously you can get Uber and deliveroo instant deliveries but that's dumb as fuck.
This is clearly a culture difference between where I live and wherever you live (please share that info)
But yes it's EXACTLY how it works in most of Europe.
I have my own cart that I walk to the store with, I never have much trouble with it, and it’s super useful when I need to get heavy things like milk. I’ve never brought it on the metro as I’ve never had any reason to, but it would not be too difficult to do so. It’s no more difficult than carrying a suitcase or two to the airport.