World News @lemmy.world wurzelgummidge @lemmy.world 1y ago

They were told to leave their homes. They did. They were still bombed

www.middleeasteye.net They were told to leave their homes. They did. They were still bombed

Palestinians in Beit Hanoun were instructed by Israeli army to leave their homes and head for city centre. Hours later, the city centre was targeted

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297 comments

Yeah, but because amongst all those people killed by the Israeli army in the very place they told them to shelter, there isn't a nice looking western girl with glamour pictures on social networks, the murder of those people will never cause the same disgust in the West as the plight of the girl kidnapped by Hamas which has been turned into a constantly repeated Israeli propaganda piece (you can tell it's now being pushed as propaganda because it's been repeated well beyond its newsworthiness and always with the same glamour picture).

The gapping chasm in numbers between those murdered by Israel and those by Hamas is inverted in terms of the disgust they cause in the West exactly because Israeli has a vastly superior propaganda machine.

Thinking people would start wondering why, reliably, 100s of murdered palestinians are portrayed with less emphasys than 1 kidnapped israeli-german teenager.
- See, on the one hand you're validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you're kind of going further the other way. She wasn't kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn't her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
  
  In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn't productive here, it won't lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn't what they do, because at this point they've pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
  
  Agreed. There's only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
  
  Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
  
  You're acting like we're just talking about "actions" that people are "doing."
  
  What you're ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They're directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
  
  This isn't a "both sides are just as bad" thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they're literally kicking them out of their family homes they've lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It's completely disproportionate.
  
  I'm not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
  
  The Israeli-German girl is apparently still alive and in criticial condition in the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. She wasn't murdered (though of course she could still succumb to whatever was done to her).
  
  Two points:
  
  As her mother is calling for news about her I'll go with her belief of "not dead" until proven otherwise given how the poor girl has been turned into a - as you so well put - "figurehead" for propaganda. I confess I'm one of those weird people who prefers to believe that others are merelly "kidnapped" rather than dead.
  
  I'm glad you're beginning to start to get my point about the use of figureheads to make the smaller number of people murderer on one side seem more disgusting to a western audience than the much larger number of deaths on the other side. That's exactly how propaganda works: turn individual humans into symbols and parade their horrible fate as justification to kill lots of those "other" humans most of whom are blamed by association.
  
  See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
  
  You know, google for "Anush Apetyan" and consider that Israel is Azerbaijan's main military supplier after Russia, and almost an ally, and nothing from what Azerbaijani troops are doing (just the same Hamas stuff) seems to have any effect.
  
  Also Israel is a genocide-denier state. Israelis on the Web like to behave all cynical and realpolitik-enjoying and "what are you going to do" on subjects similar to what Hamas has done in Sderot etc.
  
  I'd say there is an element of crocodile tears in this.
  
  Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn't mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
  
  The only reason it's not productive, in your opinion, is because it makes the side you support look REALLY fucking bad.
  
  "Why can't we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?"
  
  tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here
  
  rephrased...."Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who". Serious conversation and that is what my mind locks on. Go figure.
- It's actually because the "refugee camp" is a city of 120,000 people that have been there for 76 years in permanent buildings.
  
  It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That's what Hamas does.
  
  You're falling for their playbook, their propaganda machine, so to speak. Everyone knew this was going to happen the moment Hamas struck.
  
  Everyone knew this was going to happen the moment Hamas struck.
  
  This. All part of the terrorist's playbook - invoke persecution to radicalise more people.
  
  It doesn't make Israel's behavior ok, but the crocodile tears are a bit sickening.
- Yeah, everyone is focusing on the brutality of Hamas' murders instead of the numbers.
  
  I'm sure Hamas would be using airstrikes against Israel, if they could.
- War is horrible and the granparents of today's Palestinians were unjustly hunted and hurt. But if Hamas had not gone on slaughter spree on civilians and their fighters would not be hiding behind their their own kids and women to protect themselves from retaliation, maybe the fight would take place strictly between combatants or even better, on the social media and internet to show what's wrong.
  And no, it doesn't matter whether kid is EU, Arabian or any other looking. When there was earthquake not long ago, everyone was sympathetic with middle east looking kids being pulled out of debris.
  
  There's been an earthquake just a few days ago in Afghanistan, Pakistan etc, killing more than 2000 people, and by your comment I can see you don't even know about it.
  
  And I was arguing against Hamas immediately after it happened, but now I'm arguing against Israel because the original comment is right, they have now adjusted all their propaganda tools to use the events to justify ethnic cleansing with lots of civilian dead right now.
  
  Gazan women and children are not responsible for "their fighters" or Hamas, just as Israeli women and children are not responsible for bombs falling on Gaza.
  
  I'm disgusted with both, but proportionally to their strength.
  
  The "human shields" reasoning has been circulating for at least a decade. "Look, we had to kill the civilians, the militants were hiding behind them!" I don't know on what planet that reasoning is supposed to be acceptable.
  
  Hamas had not gone on slaughter spree on civilians
  
  Israel has killed 22x more Palestinians than Isralies have died from all pro-Palestine groups https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
- Just look at this comment, Hamas clearly has the superior propaganda machine.
Crosspost Comment from another related news article:

Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react. To keep the hate flowing is the goal of all extremists.

Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian

Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.

Please refrain from bad faith arguments and stuff like „Israel should dissolve itself“ (because you and I know, that’s not going to happen)
- There is no solution where Israel is allowed to continue forcing Palestinians from their homes. But hey, colonizers gotta colonize.
- Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
  
  Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
  
  You just hinted at the start of a possible solution. Israelis need to stop voting for warmongering criminals like Netanyahu who have zero desire to see peace. The people in Gaza? They don't get to vote.
  
  I'm actually quite positive right now in that regard, like I haven't been since the fucker killed Rabin: The right-wing vision of security for Israel just blew up in the nation's face, big time. The IDF was busy backing up settlers harassing Palestinians in the West Bank and thus not on the Gazan border, the whole "antagonise until they give up" approach binds resources needed to actually provide security. Also, Palestinians don't show any signs of giving up.
  
  If the left goes in with a "security, checkpoints, de-settlement and de-escalation" policy (of course in addition to lowering pudding prices) they might just take the Knesset wholesale.
  
  Because one thing is rather curious about Israel: While the people pretty much bought the ring-wing security vision, that didn't mean an overall shift to the right. And the seeds for the "we bred that monster" type insights are definitely already there in the Israeli press, even if formulated cautiously. Ultimately the whole current military situation has to be over with before actual politics happen.
- Since Netanyahu and Hamas are the principal belligerents, I say send in a few SEALs to arrest them, and make them do "Hell in a Cell" in the middle of the desert, till they all die of exposure.
  
  I'm aware this won't happen, but that seems to be the immediate solution here, since as you so rightly pointed out, the leadership on both sides just wants the conflict to continue ad infinitum
- Yeah Hamas and Israel are both insane, don't see a solution that doesn't involve giving Palestine land back and people electing moderate governments, but none of the foreign interests want that and neither do influential domestic factions. The most predictable blowback ever.
  
  Here's a fun whataboutist comparison: Two countries are currently in the efforts of stealing the territory of their neighbors, one though apartheid regime and slow claims to land, the other through a "military exercise." Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they're called "orks." In Israel's case their civilians are viewed as innocent victims, what is the difference? I think there are some valid differences but it does highlight some hypocrisy. I don't think any civilian deaths are justified in these conflicts, whether committed by either side.
  
  What Russian civilians are being killed??
  
  I don't really know anything about the situation beyond the 10 minute explainer I watched on youtube.
  
  It's practically a holy war that's raged for millennia though - I don't think there are "solutions", I think the goal is just to dial back the ferocity of the feud a few notches.
  
  Both sides should start by not doing war crimes.
- They can't solve this problem themselves. The UN has to step in as per my other comment. The no-state solution.
  
  Whose army is going to disarm them? You have a lot of faith in the U.N here to not fuck this up even worse than it is now
  
  Except every time the UN attempts to even condemn Israel's illegal settlements and war crimes, the US vetoes it. Because we have that power for some reason.
- Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react.
  
  Literally nobody told you that. I guarantee all you've seen up to this point are people saying exactly what you're saying.
  
  🦜
- Bro Israelis historically were the first to bomb civilian targets, if we're going to analyze it you have to start before the ottoman empire.
- I think all the Palestinians should move to Iran.
  
  Oh yeah? Who is going to pay for that?
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them

1937 - Peel commission, rejected

1947 - Partition resolution, rejected

2000 - Camp David, rejected

2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.

2008 - Olmert offer, rejected

Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new 'policy document' accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103

Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected

1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.

1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.

1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.

1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.

1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected

1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.

1949: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.

1967: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.

1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).

1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).

1995: Rabin's Contour-for-Peace, rejected.

2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.

2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.

2005: Sharon's peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.

2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.

2009 to 2021: Netanyahu's repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.

2014: Kerry's Contour-for-Peace, rejected.

Not gonna link Trump's imbecilic peace plan as an example.

Here is a list of peace offers the Palestinians offered to Israel -

None
- Why would they ever accept any "offer" to have their homes and land taken away?
- Look at the Native Americans for an example of a colonized population that accepted the terms of their colonizers.
  
  Still alive???
  Also how is it comonization? According to both religions both own the land. One party accepts the other while the other wants to kill all jews because of my god is bigger.
  I will never accept antisemitism.
- I tried finding that video - but I cannot find it in the article. Could you provide a link?
  
  I am sorry friend, the video seems to have been removed.
  I can offer you a link to the detailed 2008 happenings.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process#Israeli–Palestinian_talks_in_2007_and_2008
- The general take on Lemmy is: it's okay for Palestinians to become extremists after decades of violence, but for Israelis? no no no sir.
  
  The tankies are very noticable right now
- Thank you for being honest and admitting that Israel has not been willing to even come to the table for 18 years
  
  What a wierd take from that information.
  
  Blatant lying from [email protected].
Hamas are animals. Abducting children and internationals. These last few days have shown they do not deserve sympathy. Watching Palestinians cheer when rockets get launched just proves my point.
- So instead you are cheering when civilians on the other side are being killed. Great logic. I hope you feel morally superior and can sleep better at night.
  
  Where did he cheer that Palestinian civilians got killed?
  
  One simple rule to achieve peace and stability is diplomatic talk. You don't use violence as answer.
  
  Attacking civilians is also plain and simple terrorism. Hamas proved with this action they are not worth more than terrorists.
- Cutting off food, water and electricity for 2.3 million people.
  
  I wonder if people notice the irony of Israel recreating the Warsaw ghetto.
- So that justifies deliberately targeting civilians? Israel is no better than Hamas.
  
  Yeah, lots of Palestinian music festivals attacked recently, eh?
- They have been horrifically oppressed for decades.
  
  They have lived in constant fight for your life squalor while America keeps siphoning money and weapons to Israel, who, in turn, simply tortures Palestine.
  
  I dont condone it, but I can't bring myself to fake outrage or surprise.
  
  America caused this.
  
  America needs to stop funding terrorists (Israel). It only breeds more terrorists (Hamas).
  
  And at the end of the day, that was the point.
  
  There is another armed conflict for American military contractors to cash in on.
  
  America needs to stop funding terrorists (Israel). It only breeds more terrorists (Hamas).
  
  Add to your list that Israel actively funded Hamas in the 90s to take the steam out of the Palestinian peace movement.
  
  If the same kind of pressure being put on Hamas was put on the Israeli authorities, the problem with Palestine would've been over long ago, just like Appartheid in South Africa has made to end by international pressure, not because the assholes in power in SA woke up one day and decided to the do the morally right thing.
  
  As long as Israel gets to keep its boot on the necks of Palestinians (worse, activelly helped to do so), there will always be people who are born and grow with nothing to lose for whom even an organisation internationally treated as a terrorist organisation is still a step up.
  
  I totally agree it's the US who have maintained this situation, and I also want to add Europe, whose leaders have sided with Israel or assumed the kind of "neutrality" that "peace loving" "tankies" assume with regards to Russia's invasion of Ukraine (i.e. not wanting to help Ukraine).
  
  Your worldview is so fucked up. The reason Israel gets support is because if it didn't, the surrounding Arab nations would have wiped it out, as they have said multiple times.
  
  It's like a bully attacks a little kid, and the little kid's older brother shows up to defend him, and then you saying, "the older brother caused this because he wouldn't let the bully beat up that little kid!"
  
  You've got it all backwards man. Get help.
- The Israelis do it too though.
  
  Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
  
  1937 - Peel commission, rejected
  
  1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
  
  2000 - Camp David, rejected
  
  2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
  
  2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
  
  Here's a video (in the article) where the chief palestinian negotiator explains what was offered in 2008. Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new 'policy document' accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
  
  Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
  
  1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
  
  1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
  
  1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
  
  1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
  
  1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
  
  1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
  
  1949: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
  
  1967: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
  
  1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
  
  1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
  
  1995: Rabin's Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
  
  2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
  
  2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
  
  2005: Sharon's peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
  
  2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
  
  2009 to 2021: Netanyahu's repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
  
  2014: Kerry's Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
  
  Not gonna link Trump's imbecilic peace plan as an example.
  
  Here is a list of peace offers the Palestinians offered to Israel -
  
  None
- If you treat a bunch of people like animals for long enough, what do you think will happen?

297 comments