Lemmy exceeds million users (maybe more accurately accounts)
Lemmy has multiplied it's number of users (maybe more accurately accounts) in just few days. How much do you think is the percentage of bot accounts? Is Lemmy having problem with bot farming?
Active users will probably drop off as the Reddit dust settles, but I'm liking it so far, not really that much of a jarring change once you get past the ActivityPub shananigans.
@dessalines@1337tux but if they're bots they'd still count as active users assuming they aren't idle.
In the end, neither really matters, assuming the bots aren't causing you or your server trouble, like the thousands of posts taghing GNU SOCIAL users repeatedly a couple weeks ago. Could still be happening on instances with absantee admins. (like my original GNU SOCIAL account of @[email protected])
One of my communities tripled in size in 2 days, with people making OC posts and no spam (so far). Other communities get a bit more lively too. Doesn't seem like it's just bots.
There's obviously bots, but some folks do multiple accounts as default (I do for sure), and others just want to have a bit of padding against instance failure. Others don't realise you don't need to have an account on an instance to access it lol.
Others don’t realise you don’t need to have an account on an instance to access it lol.
this, i think, is going to be the biggest hurdle for getting people to join the fediverse. we need seamless ways to view and subscribe to magazines on other instances than our own. either that or we need one to get big enough that it simply eats the smaller instances.
You had me right up until that last bit - As it is I'd argue there's too much centralization. For one thing, people underestimate the technical considerations of hosting a reddit sized social media service. Once you reach a certain point, just moving to a bigger server isn't sufficient. Also there's the money issue of a single instance hosting all of lemmy.
But even more so than all that, the decentralization is the whole point of the fediverse.if all of lemmy was on one instance, we'd pretty much just be right where we were with Reddit, at the mercy of whoever owns that instance. When things are properly decentralized, if an instance owner goes on a power trip, it's users can simply migrate away, and there would be plenty of other instances of equal size with lots of content. If one instance ate all the others, you'd have to rebuild from scratch if you moved
You had me right up until that last bit - As it is I'd argue there's too much centralization. For one thing, people underestimate the technical considerations of hosting a reddit sized social media service. Once you reach a certain point, just moving to a bigger server isn't sufficient. Also there's the money issue of a single instance hosting all of lemmy.
But even more so than all that, the decentralization is the whole point of the fediverse.if all of lemmy was on one instance, we'd pretty much just be right where we were with Reddit, at the mercy of whoever owns that instance. When things are properly decentralized, if an instance owner goes on a power trip, it's users can simply migrate away, and there would be plenty of other instances of equal size with lots of content. If one instance ate all the others, you'd have to rebuild from scratch if you moved
Something like fedi observer can probably only gauge posts and comments, so active users will severely undercount people actually using the platform. But we should expect posting users to grow proportionally with less visible but active users.
Extremely low compared to the total growth: Per https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/dailystats Lemmy grew from 150,000 to 1,150,000 total users in the last four days, but for the active users, the growth was 30,000 to 39,000. If you extrapolate that, there are maybe 200,000 real Lemmy users now.
I think, and hope, that that might be the result of the (debatable) set up of some leddit bots? But it does not explain comments. I think we probably need to provide something similar to threat intelligence, where we propose a curated list of instances which are bots and expose it through an API, so that admins can defederate them automatically without doing extra work. It would be a nice project for the weekend!
It certainly didn't take long to spot servers like that on fedidb! I wonder what is causing people to make those? Load testing? Spam farm? Social experiment to see if people will sign up to an empty instance? Trying to setup an automated simulated social network like people joked reddit was where everyone is a bot except for you?
I think the most realistic answer is that they're test instances either by a tech company that believes they have a path to monetize a fediverse project or by some kind of spam farm, but the lack of any posts is still positively weird
Hah! The idea of an simulated social network sounds weirdly interesting. An idea that just pops into my head would be a (mystery) game based on a lemmy instance, where bots progress the story line and people can participate by finding clues in communities of the instance and triggering the next phase of the story by commenting in the right spots. 🤔
Have all of the Lemmy instances (and kbin ones, too) now added email requirements, captcha, and maybe the little paragraph asking why you should have an account that Beehaw does?
Also, how do you identify bot accounts? Can you bulk ban accounts or.do they all have to be examined and dealt with individually?
ETA: I wasn't suggesting the paragraph. Just wondering what the instances are putting in to prevent bots. I actually tried to sign up for Beehaw, wrote my little paragraph, and then got the pinwheel of death, lol. I was never able to sign up, but lucked out with a kbin.social account. I have to add that it's pretty disappointing to be downvoted for simply asking a question. Feels like what I left at Reddit.
Yeah I was a bit weirded out by that, it's like what, am I joining a cult? Anyway I actually signed up on a number of instances in search of one I like and only a couple were using an application. The rest were just captcha plus email.
I think they should come up with a better mechanism than an application. I understand the need to verify a signer is actually a human being, but an application is pretty off-putting. Problem is there's bots that can get around captcha and email authentication, AI keeps getting smarter.
It is too easy to fake e-mails. You can set up a catch-all e-mail domain and spam the registration like that. I am not a fan of giving my e-mail nor collecting other people's e-mails.
My current message contains the following:
Please leave a short message (a sentence or two is enough) stating why you would like to join this instance and I will accept your application as soon as possible. The purpose of this form is to filter out spam bots, not to judge your motivation for joining.
It is not about them writing an essay to be let in. It is a very effective strategy to weed out spam accounts being registered in masse. One step is to make sure that the user made a cohesive sentence that addressees the question, and the other step is to check whether there is a sudden spike of similar new applications. Even ignoring the actual text, it is useful to be able to monitor whether you getting rate-limited bursts of account creations, and having the ability to approve/deny allows you to respond with less effort than if they succeed at creating the accounts.
Sounds like it sorts out the right kind of people? I'm not aware of anyone actually asking you to write an essay, no one would do that. 2 short answer questions does not an essay make.
I think this cements worries that some people who are trying to run these servers don't actually understand the severity of the bot-problem online and aren't doing enough to protect themselves, not even the basics. It makes you wonder what kind of other basic cybersecurity protections they haven't set up on their servers, or if their servers are even hardened at all.
I wonder how much (if any) of this is driven by reddit to create more ambiguity to people's feelings about the fediverse? It's totally possible it's all "organic" bot growth, but if they're willing to go to the lengths they have against their own users, I also wouldn't put it past them to be trying to destroy the credibility of any "competitors" in the space.
I've seen at least a few posts bringing attention to a huge amount of new instances that have conspicuous user count to user activity numbers. There's definitely something to be cautious of I think.
I used to run a phpbb forum, on average the bot signups outnumbered the real people 10 or 20 times. And that was with some fairly robust anti spam measures in place - something I think this platform is too new to have properly sorted out yet.
I may be wrong, I don't know how the back end here works, but any place where people can post publicly will be infested with bot signups very quickly. The only real variable is how good the anti spam measures are.
What is something someone can gain by swarming an instance or forums like yours with bots? I cant wrap my head around it. Also if someone has an instance and swarms it with bot accounts, it may seem like you got a popular instance but where is the revenue if there are noone who is able to click an ad? Do they do it just for the lols?
I think it's a combination of things. There are real users who have migrated to Lemmy because of reddit's horrible treatment of its users and there are also bots being created but that's normal on the internet.
I asked the same question. The answer is that there are a bunch of instances (probably 15-20) which have thousands or tens of thousands of new accounts (<1 week old) but have barely dozens of posts. Here's a sheet made by @sunaurus showing the effect. A bunch of the explosion is in open signup (no email, no captcha, no verification) and there is zero interaction on the instance. Could we be seeing half a million lurkers on instances with <200 comments combined between them in the last couple of days? I suppose it's possible, but it seems unlikely.
Thank you for the clarification. Do you have by any chance data at hand about the development of active users? Or may you direct me to a community of where I get these kinde of data?
I can always appreciate a good /r/TheoryOfReddit post on bots. But yeah. Despite the regularity that bots are blamed for everything, rarely is there any proof other than an expressed feeling by a live user.
@DerWilliWonka@1337tux yeah, I'm guessing a lot, I didn't save the post, but I saw earlier this week some instances that were spun up brand new and in less than an hour had >5,000 users.
One of many reasons to recommend against allowing open sign-up on your instance. A lot htat have been around for longer, like lemmy.ca, require you to request an account, and answer some questions (like why do you want your accoutn on this particularl instance) and a real person clicks the check-mark button.
Some new users will be annoyed by such, but the truth is if they are annoyed by that, they probably aren't going to be good fedizens open to following good netiquette anyway.
If you click through any of the stat pages people are linking, active user count grew like 20%-30% over the several days when registered user counts grew 400%. None of the previous two weeks look anything like that. Active users should grow FASTER than registered users, since probably still ~20% of registered accounts are old/abandoned from before the reddit emigration and new human accounts stay active at least for a while as people test.
If you look at the list of top growing instances, you'll see instances with like 20k registered users and 6 (actually six) logged in users reported on their frontpage. If you compare that to instances with real humans involved, expect may 5% or 10% of registered users to show up as logged in (that will probably drop a bit over time as the current burst of engagement wans)... 0.2% of users being active is not normal.
Basically there isn't really a debate. Anyone who spends 5m looking, immediately concludes using that organic growth is like 5% or 10% per day (which is monstrously and unsustainably fast growth). The many people posting this one graph of 600k bots getting registered over 3 days just haven't thought it through for more than 3 seconds.
You see a bunch of instance pop up with zero reputation and a large number of brand new users, basically none of which have any posting history m, you can be pretty sure what those accounts are.
Yeah, Lemmy bot net. I looked at one server and it was ridiculous the number of users vs active. My guess is the servers that had open signups got hammered with bot signups
It's not "me" thinking, there are several posts bringing this problem to the attention of admins, basically they took advantage of servers with open registration to "spam create" thousands of accounts, you don't see signs because they're "dormant" for now (that's what bots do when a spam campaign is not currently active), you can recognize it by confronting number of users with user activity, for example, if you see a server with 6k users and only 5-6 posts, it means it's a bot farm waiting for a spam campaign to start.
I'll probably stick to kbin as well. I tried to create an account on beehaw, wrote a nice little paragraph about why I wanted to join and with no explanation my request was denied.