did anyone else from the USA grow up being forced to say the pledge to the flag in school?
did anyone else from the USA grow up being forced to say the pledge to the flag in school?
im 20 for reference. ever since i was a kid, up until hs, we were forced every morning to stand, look at the flag and hold our hearts and say:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
i didnt stand a single time because i disagreed with being forced, and i was berated by the teacher in front of everyone, and he threatened to kick me out of class if i ever did it again. i was about 11-12 then, it was 2015.
As an outsider, I find it very cultish to pledge to a piece of cloth.
It absolutely is, doubly so because of the added and unneeded "under god" bs that gets shoved into everything...
that was a huge issue i had with it too, but i omitted that so i didnt seem like an edgy tween atheist (though its a 100% valid criticism that i should have included).
no doubt, i 100% find it very cult-like and disgusting, and i had realized it then too.
It's very strange. It's a very doublethink cult. The same people who worship the flag will vote to not give health benefits to 9/11 first responders. Those same people will then use american flag napkins.
Since I became an adult I always found it kind of strange. I did not realize just how strange it was until I dropped my son off at Pre-K a little late and walked in to a whole class of 4 year olds hands on hearts mumbling through the pledge. It was sooo eerie.
As a genX-er, I grew up having to say it through elementary and middle school. I quit participating in the mid ‘80s. We were forced to attend John Birch Society events in school hat would talk about how horrible Russia was and how they fed propaganda to the kids from an early age. Reagan would always talk about all the horrible things USSR would do with their childhood propaganda too. I realized right away that everything the school was doing was the same thing.
I got labeled as a bad kid. Not Christian enough and not obedient enough.
Also Gen X (1971) and while I remember it in first grade (so this would have been around 1976-77) I don't think it continued much past 1st grade. MAYBE 2nd. So I lucked out there I suppose. I cannot imagine getting indoctrinated by JBS though. I'm sure it would have gone down well in a lot of the midwest where I grew up, but I suppose I also lucked out there in that the school board and staff were pretty apolitical when it came to school structure.
The irony, to me, is that town is liberal now. The surrounding county is super maga but the city is all hippie liberal. But as a child, this Colorado town was Texas red. Don’t spend money on education because we need a better high school football stadium type of town.
From the Pledge of Allegiance to in-school John Birch society events is a hell of an acceleration. Holy shit.
Non american here. I have a few questions.
- What exactly does it mean?
- What if you don't agree with it, for example the "under of god" part.
- Does it have a legal status? For example can you be arrested for not pleging allegiance, or failing to have pledged at some point in your life?
- What about freedom of speech? How can one force you to express yourself? I feel like freedom of speech goes both ways : I'd like to have the same freedom of "not speech" as well.
No, there’s no legal requirements to say the pledge or anything. I’ve never seen it done outside of schools, it’s just a weird tradition that has been carried on.
In my high school nobody in my classes actually said it, but one of the teachers or the student council president would say it over the intercom (we didn’t even stand for it, usually just went back to our work while they talked).
As a younger child in elementary school I remember we were expected to say it, and I do remember a couple kids getting yelled at for not saying it (by the teacher, I don’t think there was any formal punishment). I know some Muslim children would say the whole thing and leave out the “under God” part.
I never paid much attention to it until I got older and realized how weird it was. I’m hoping it goes away eventually.
- The Pledge of Allegiance was first created in 1892 to foster a sense of national unity. It was brainwashy even back then, especially having children recite it every morning, but it wasn't really intentionally malicious. It was intended to instill a sense of national fraternity in a fractured group of people, during a time that political tensions ran high and America was being filled with a large percentage of immigrants. Giving everyone an identity as Americans was important in moving the country forward at the time. That doesn't make it not nationalism, but at the time it was instituted I can understand where they were coming from.
Adding the "Under God" part and requiring it to be recited every morning before class wasn't instituted until 1954 during the Cold War era, when adults were worried that their children were commie spies. Their way of solving this was to shove Christianity and American Nationalism down the throats of everyone within earshot.
2,3,4. Via the Pledge's Wikipedia page:
In 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. In 1943, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court reversed its decision. Justice Robert H. Jackson, writing for the 6 to 3 majority, went beyond simply ruling in the precise matter presented by the case to say that public school students are not required to say the Pledge on narrow grounds, and asserted that such ideological dogmata are antithetical to the principles of the country, concluding with:
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.
So as of current day, no, you cannot be compelled to stand and recite the Pledge. You WILL most likely receive nasty comments from your homeroom teacher, particularly if they are religious and/or older folks, and can be sent out of class to the principals office for basically any reason or no reason including this. It's against the law for the principal to leverage punishment against you for not reciting the pledge, but they can and will make your life very difficult if they feel like it without direct "punishment".
But in general, no, there is no legal punishment or precedent for someone who does not recite the pledge of allegiance. At worst, if you're accused of being a spy or of treason, it will be wielded as evidence that you are "un-American" and act as "proof" that you hate America. But it is not a punishable offense by itself.
- As school children, we swore this oath. It describes loyalty to the flag and (more importantly) the nation and ideals that the flag represents.
- As a child, I would just be silent during the 'under god' part. No one noticed. If they had, there isn't really anything they could do about it.
- There have been lawsuits. Basically, you are not legally obligated to say it. There would be a lot of peer pressure to do so, because each of our school days would start with the whole class saying it.
- Again, it is controversial, but you are not technically forced to say it.
Here is a breakdown of what the pledge means:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America"
I swear loyalty to the flag
"and to the Republic for which it stands,"
and to the government it represents
"one Nation under God,"
a country guided by the Lord!
"indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
united, with freedom and justice for everyone**terms and conditions apply
The long and short of it is that the pledge of allegiance is exactly what it says on the tin; you are pledging that your loyalty is to the flag (by proxy, to the United States). However, as a US citizen, one has a 1st amendment right that is supposed to protect you from being forced by the government to say the pledge (otherwise known as compelled speech). Constitutionally, you cannot be arrested or otherwise punished for not saying the pledge, or for expressing distaste for the pledge, leaving out the "under God" part while reciting the pledge, or even saying that you think the flag is nothing more than a nationalist propaganda symbol.
That all said, I feel like there is at least one or two stories a year where a student is accosted by a teacher because they refused to recite the pledge. Any teacher who does this is setting themselves and the school up for a lawsuit, as accosting/punishing a student for not reciting the pledge is flat out unconstitutional..
On a different note, as an American who grew up mindlessly citing the pledge throughout my K-12 years, it was a pretty harsh realization when I learned that this is essentially a kind of indoctrination. I honestly feel a bit gross when I go to my kid's school events and the first thing they do is trot out the flag and start the pledge. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a push to have it removed as a regular thing at public schools in the US (nor would I be surprised at a reactionary response from the "patriots" in our country if there was a movement against the pledge...).
1.it's exactly as it seems, its a pledge of devotion to your country and it's principles.
2. i didn't agree with it, i was berated for it, others didn't and nothing happens. it all depends on the situation
3. i did learn that it was made illegal to force anyone to stand in 1943, but many teachers and schools clearly didn't care or know. you cannot get in any legal trouble for not standing, you have the complete freedom to not stand or pledge ever, but that doesnt stop some peoples negative reactions when you exercise that right.
4. it does go both ways, but as i said in point 3, some people in charge didn't care. the teacher took advantage of the fact that i was a kid and he had authority over me, despite me being within my rights-
"I promise I will be loyal and true to the flag of the USA. The flag is the symbol of the USA, and I promise I will be loyal and true to the USA as well. The USA is one being, which cannot be broken apart. The USA is watched over and protected by God (assuming they mean the Christian god, but it could be any). The USA holds true the notion that freedom and justice should be given to everyone."
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Just don't say it. I completely skip over the "under God" part. Or if you don't agree with any of it, you don't have to say it.
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There are no legal ramifications for abstaining from pledging, but you may suffer some peer pressure. Freedom of speech (or not speech) does not mean freedom from consequences, just freedom from legal punishment enacted by the federal government.
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Same as above. Generally what I do (I work in a high school that says it every morning) is sit quietly, and I encourage students to do it as well if they choose not to participate. You may not believe in it yourself, but I think it's good to be respectful to those who do choose to participate.
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Yep. It was in the 90s, and after 7th grade we mostly didn't do it anymore (some court ruled it wasn't legal to force us) but we had to sit quietly during the point when we were supposed to be doing in.
EDIT: You are in your 20s, and your teacher yelled at you? He was breaking the law. I bet you remember who it was too. If you see him on social media, I suggest you send him (West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)) and demand an apology.
https://www.loc.gov/item/usrep319624/
And tell him a veteran told you this.
thanks for your reply. this all happened in about 2015.
yes, i remember him clearly. he was also incredibly inappropriate with his female students. I remember an incident where i was walking out of his classroom and he was showing another female student "a joke" where he used siri or something to look up "penis" and show her the results. mine you we were all 11 and 12. everyone called him a pedo. he was coach of the girls soccer team. i wish i could go back and stand up for her and myself, but i was a scared kid.
edit: just looked him up on FB. his face made me feel such dread. he has a kid now, a young girl
@euphoria Ugh. Watch him show up in the news at some point in the future.
Yeah, I vaguely remember it making the news in the 90s, and I stopped standing at that point. I had one teacher tell me once it was "required" that I stand. I just said "no thanks" and continued sitting, and he dropped it.
It wasn't a big protest in my case though. I normally had a CD player stuffed in my belt, and standing made it more likely to fall out and get noticed. I generally avoided standing as much as possible in those days.
It looks like there were a bunch of challenges in the 90s that got struck down. https://www.findlaw.com/education/student-rights/the-pledge-of-allegiance-and-legal-challenges-in-education.html An actual lawyer would know more detail, I bet.
You'd get screamed at by the teacher and more than likely end up getting a stupid long lecture about the importance of patriotism if you refused
Like damn bro sorry y'all haven't done shit to make me proud except scream at me that I should be proud
that's essentially what happened. i was so scared and embarrassed at this grown man going off on me for doing nothing except exercising my right to sit.
I got sick of it and made up my own pledge:
I pledge my cheeses to the hag
of the untied snakes of harmonica
And to my public, the Richard Stans
One nation, under Zod, invisible
With liver, tea, and just us for allI went to elementary school in the late 60s and early 70s and yes, we said the pledge every day. I didn't think anything about it back then.
As a Boy Scout in the mid 70s, we said the pledge at every meeting. Again, I gave it no thought.
In the 90s, I was in a Ham Radio club and they said it before every meeting. I found it odd, but went along with them.
In the last few years, I joined the local HOG (Harley Owners Group) chapter and they said it before every meeting. Now I'm beginning to question why, as an adult in a seemingly innocuous club, am I supposed to pledge my allegiance to the flag. This isn't the military, there's no reason for it.
If you're wanting me to say the pledge to the flag, you're just wanting me to show my patriotism and that word is about as vile to me now as a racial slur.
If I ever find myself in an organization that wants me to stand and recite the pledge, I'll be walking out the door.
From early on I remember skipping "god". Guess I was atheist before I knew what that was.
I'm 44 and grew up in Miami. We had the regular southern patriotism mixed with the Cubans who were very friggin thankful to be living in the US (including my family!) So you better believe we all said it! But the way I saw it, my parents and grandparents left Cuba so that we wouldn't have to do that kinda of things in school. I love my country, but it's crazy to put your hands over your heart and pledge every single morning, not to mention that under God part that was added only a couple of decades before I even started to say it.
As a big fan of Groenig's "Life in Hell" comic strip, I just started saying one of his versions:
I plead alignment to the flakes of the untitled snakes of a merry cow, and to the republicans, for which they scam: one nacho, underpants with licorice and jugs of wine for owls.
At some point in high school I stopped standing. I want to say my freshman year but I could be wrong. It was just on a whim one day, although I was a bit of a rebel at heart, I was not the type of student to get in trouble for anything.
Anyway, from the day I first decided to ignore the pledge, I was never reprimanded for it. Some teachers would stare daggers at me but I never received any punishment nor were my parents notified.
Edit to add: The time period would have been sometime from 2007-2010
Interesting, I never got in trouble in High School but every 1st period teacher I had was obssessed with making sure each and every student was pledging their allegiance, and the closest I got to getting into trouble was refusing to pledge. I had to write a letter explaining why I wasn't going to anymore.
We were even stopped in the hall, 3 minutes until your class? Too bad, you have to wait in silence in the hall and be late to your class.
Millennial here. I remember doing this in elementary school in the 90s. I moved in 3rd grade from a place that didn't do it, so it was super weird to me coming in as an outsider.
Forced? No. But I was was questioned or disciplined by a few teachers for not saying it.
We did that in class, but only when I was a very little kid, like in elementary school in the 70s.
In retrospect, it's creepy, but by the time I was old enough that I might have questioned it, we weren't doing it anymore.
This Whitest Kids You Know video about it sums it up pretty well. (Although the dig at Ritalin at the end is kinda weird)
I attended a school board meeting recently and they asked everyone stand and recite before the meeting would begin. I got so many dirty looks for refusing.
To watch a room full of adults look and pledge to a flag was comical and disturbing
At least through elementary school, yes. I can't recall for middle school if we did it every day or not.
Looking at it now in my 40s, I always think it feels like some sort of weird brainwash-y, cult-like behavior.
Yes. It's weird and should be stopped.
Lots of places don't do that. I teach in New England and we don't do that. I'm not sure we ever did!
EDIT: I teach HS, but I have a ten-year-old. I just asked him and at his school they did it every day with the new principal, but only occasionally the year before. I had no idea! We definitely don't do it at rhe HS, but maybe some do.
As a German, this entire things feels always so bizarre to me. If a teacher "over here" would try and make their students do something similar for the German flag, said teacher would get kicked out of the faculty pretty quickly.
The same goes for religion by the way. While we did have classes about religion for a while (Katholischer / Evangelischer Religionsunterricht), the teachers were more or less just explaining what certain passages of the Bible meant, how they had been misinterpreted in the past, what is similar or different between certain religions etc. but not even they were allowed to make their students actually pray.
PS: and those were optional classes by the way. If your parents didn't want you to attend, you didn't attend. No discussion.
To make it worse, I found out not too long ago that the version they made me say wasn't even the original. "Under God" did not exist in the original version of the pledge.
EDIT: For those that were curious, apparently it was added in 1954 under Dwight Eisenhower.
Good for you OP! I stopped standing to pledge around when I was maybe 10 or 11, when I learned it was illegal to make standing for it mandatory & about how the words 'under God' were added later and the pledge violated separation of church and state. I come from a very liberal area and all my teachers were quite proud of me I think, especially my 6th-grade teacher. But a lot of my classmates didn't understand and I got bullied a lot for it. But I refused to do it. My mom was teaching public policy so....that probably influenced it a lot haha
I did not enjoy being forced to say this in school, to say the least.
I am twice your age and we did it for a while then the schools just stopped. The cult I was in didn’t like the pledge though so I would just stand and murmur certain parts (like “under god”) to avoid being punished.
It happened every morning in my school, but we weren't forced. I would routinely just stay seated and not say the pledge, personally.
I'm 50, and yes. Except in HS, I sat and dared them to do something about it. My school knew how to pick their battles, they never disciplined me for my acts of civil disobedience (I also protested the dress code when they enacted one).
We said the pledge in the mornings in elementary school in the 80s. I don't believe it was held in middle or high school. I never thought twice about it and I don't think any of the other kids did either. Can't remember any issues arising over it then. I couldn't really care less about whether or not schools continued to hold it now.
I would never say forced - it's just normal practice, but abstention happened. Shared experience is a powerful uniting factor. Reinforced daily, even moreso. Every student remembered the Pledge itself and remembers seeing every other student doing it - regardless of race, creed, or color. We were all Americans. I remember the first times I saw someone not taking part, the first, it was for religious reasons; his parents were part of a religious group that wouldn't let them swear oaths or something like that. The second was much later, and it was how I found out that someone in my class was a resident alien.
It's obviously a stand-in for a religious prayer; I don't think anyone past 4th grade had any misconception about that. It's also a prayer of nationalism and loyalty to the country. If we could bring people back together like that still, it would help.
Yep, everyday K-12. We also had a moment of silence after the pledge, with the idea that kids would use that time to pray. Of course, nobody did because it was lame.
Went to Catholic school from 1976 through 1987. We did the pledge in the morning through ... fifth grade? Maybe through eighth, but I don't really remember. Definitely not in high school. In those early years, I wasn't aware enough to know that I even could not want to recite it, let alone having the knowledge that I legally didn't even have to recite it, or even stand up for it.
When my kids were going to public elementary, they did it, too. Very early on, one of my kids didn't like to do it, but it was more about social anxiety than making a political statement. So even though I was well aware of the legal rights around the pledge in school, I did encourage that child to participate when they could, because taking part in a group activity like that was a healthier choice than not for them at that age.
We've since all had plenty of political/legal discussions, including around the pledge and its history, so they all make their own choices now, if the high school even has students recite it at all.
Yep. Unfortunately, I was raised in a very conservative household and didn't start questioning those beliefs until college, so I never thought twice about how weird it is to force students to stand up and pledge allegiance to something they literally can not understand the full meaning of.
I grew up in Florida and funnily enough most of the teachers didn’t care, some even encouraged us to think about why we do it and make a decision for ourselves. I’m 28. I’m sure they all moved out of state or got fired by now.
Not only that, I was in a private, church-school for a couple years and we also had a pledge for the christian flag as well.
Also, why is there a christian flag?
I thought everyone did. I did for sure. I know in Texas they say the Texas pledge to the Texas flag as well (or at least they did 20 years ago).
Yes, I did. I didn't think anything about it at the time, but as an adult is seems weird, and like someone else said cultish. Yet, I am conflicted, because one of my concerns about the USA is increasing partisanship driven diverging cultures. Having kids say the pledge of allegiance is generally unoffensive, especially when compared to our ongoing culture wars.
As a millennial that grew up in the early-to-mid 2000s, it was absolutely expected pre-middle school that we do this. Pretty gross.
I was never forced which is kind of notable since I’m from Alabama. I think my school was terrified of getting slapped with a lawsuit.
Christ, I'm almost 40 and they're still doing that?!
Starting September 12, 2001 it became mandatory in high school, with disciplinary action taken if you refused to stand during the pledge
This was very me
it's weird as fuck, and especially the "under god" part like the rest isn't all that terrible ig but why must u shove god into everything
It was tacked on in the 50s (note how it kinda messes with the cadence) because of godless commies. There have been other little tweaks as well, some making it worse (e.g. "under god") and some better (abandoning the, herrrm, "Roman" salute). While always a bit weirdly nationalistic, the core of the modern pledge was written by a Christian Socialist and replaced one that was worse and more explicitly religious.
I guess it's not so weird that it exists and I assume many countries have some sort of boilerplate loyalty oath they can bust out as needed, but it's pretty messed up that it's mandatory for kids on a daily basis and fetishizes the flag as an object. I am quite fond of my country, and I think there are a lot of worse places to live, but our history is pretty messed up and our views on what exactly constitutes freedom and democracy are not unquestionable just because some clever provincial elites came up with a halfway workable system in the late 1700s. I suppose it's marginally better to build a national cult out of institutions and symbols than individuals, but it's still a terrible idea to treat patriotism like religious dogma.
We only had one teacher tell us we were required to (we were standing up just kinda mumbling it), the following class everyone just stayed seated and at least 3 of us had printouts in our backpacks confirming that it was a violation of the first amendment to require it.
He didn't even acknowledge it, knowing that teacher I imagine he looked it up right after and realized he was wrong.
We eventually resumed standing up but hands at our sides and silent.
Edit: if this is showing up as a reply to another comment, it was supposed to be a top level comment to the OP. Some weird stuff keeps happening with my comments but I'm not sure if it's just visual.
I grew up in Florida and Tennessee in the 80s and 90s. It was definitely a daily thing, but very lax enforcement and I don't know that anybody would have made a huge stink about it even then. The duck and cover "tornado" drills were very real and very serious though.
we did this during elementary school in the 80s. I also remember doing duck and cover drills for nuclear war.
This is still done in public schools in Texas, and they have the kids pledge allegiance to the Texas flag too.
U can always go to a different country :)
average american's reaction when someone doesnt want to be forced to worship a piece of cloth and a god they don't believe in every morning, and get berated if they dont lmfao. home of the free, right?
