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If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel's crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you're either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent. Either way, you have no business lecturing about the moral course of action in this crisis.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Jokes aside I unironically agree with everything you just said.
Can I get a double with no pickle, medium fry and a frosty to dip my fries in?
a frosty to dip my fries in?
If this is what the kids are doing nowadays, I hate the kids
This is what my wife introduced me to 20 years ago.
It was featured in the TV Show "Rocket Power" like 20 years ago, and people in the USA have been ordering burger, fries, and a milkshake since like the 1940s or even before.
Yeah, but dipping the fries IN the milkshake?
I guess I'm just not hooked-in to my own country's culinary culture. 😔
I’ve seen this sentiment expressed but I thought you expressed it super well, fwiw
If you want to argue that the answer to Biden being too soft on Israel’s crimes is to let the guy who handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter get back into power, you’re either a covert Zionist agent, or an unwitting Zionist agent.
The answer to Biden's complicity in Netanyahu's genocide is greater political pressure for him to stop.
Of course, people who don't want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
Of course, people who don't want him to stop will always try to pretend that any opposition is support for Trump.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop? That’s a silly opinion if so. Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
I want this to end as much as you, but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect. And in our country there are only 2 options so vote for. So if I’m not voting for Biden, I am just helping Trump get in office and do more harm.
You honestly think the people posting this sentiment don’t want Netanyahu to stop?
I don't know. They sure as hell don't want Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu's genocide.
Maybe you disagree with the logic being used, but you can’t say these people actively want Netanyahu to continue what he’s doing.
Then they should pressure Biden to stop supporting Netanyahu's genocide. They won't. They get mad at people who say Biden should stop supporting genocide instead.
I want this to end as much as you,
Yeah.
but it is undeniable that Biden is a better candidate than Trump in this respect.
Yes. He should still stop supporting genocide. Maybe centrists should say so.
You can be 2 things at the same time. This whole thread is about voting. It’s possible to pressure Biden while also voting against the undeniably worse candidate.
What doesn’t make sense is voting in a way that will end up significantly worse for Gaza and saying you’re doing that because you can’t possibly support Biden.
It’s possible to pressure Biden while also voting against the undeniably worse candidate.
Then centrists should start doing the former in addition to the latter.
Instead, they scream that anyone who does the former wants trump.
I think when you joint a thread that’s about voting, or references voting, these are the comments you’re going to see. Doesn’t means we’re “centrists”, just means we care about the election results IN ADDITION TO the state of our world.
Doesn’t means we’re “centrists”, just means we care about the election results IN ADDITION TO the state of our world.
If you care about election results, you should be doing everything you can to pressure Biden to abandon a losing issue.
If not "centrist", what term would you prefer for people who would rather support genocide and lose to Trump with all that entails than abandon support for genocide and win?
I’d call person a strawman.
Of course, people who want an excuse to support trump will pretend anyone not vocally raging about Biden every day is a lover of genocide.
I've said multiple times in this thread that I'm voting for Biden. I've told you that multiple times as well. You have chosen to ignore it and call me a trumpist.
Your insistence on pivoting the conversation to be anti-biden literally every chance you get is suspicious to say the least
Your intense rage and conspiratorial suspicion at people criticizing Biden for actively abetting a genocide is pretty suspicious to say the least.
So anyone opposed to curtailing abortion rights also loves actively killing babies too, right?
It's definitely not that it's more complicated than that. It's that such folks love to watch babies get murdered. Tickles them pink. Your "argument" is definitely not a cop-out meant to shut down anyone who disagrees by accusing them of supporting something that at most .01% of humans would ever support. It's completely and totally honest.
It is really hard to believe you folks don't want genocide when you spend every day railing at people who want it to stop. I recognize usernames from the people who were shouting we were supporting Trump for voting uncomitted in a primary. If your reaction to every instance of someone trying to pressure Biden to not continue a genocide is vitriolic rage, then I think I should be questioning your motives.
I don't think you want the genocide necessarily, I just think you're so terrified and self-interested that you won't risk literally anything to stop a genocide. You're cowards who are going to let my coworkers families be shelled out of their homes in the hope that Biden will save you from Trump, rather than trying for even an instant to prevent it from happening. I also think that supporting the genocide is going to lose Biden the election, so I think even your self-interested fear is deluded. Biden is sitting on damning evidence of his administration pushing for Israel support despite growing evidence of Israel's crimes, and I am not naive enough to think that will remain secret until election day.
Which is it?
It is really hard to believe you folks don’t want genocide when you spend every day railing at people who want it to stop
or
I don’t think you want the genocide necessarily
?
What's hard for me to believe is that the users -- which I see every day just waiting for an opportunity to throw Biden under the bus for not stopping something he could at best TRY to stop, except instead of acknowledging that reality, laying all of it at his feet -- have no ulterior motive.
I also think that supporting the genocide is going to lose Biden the election
If that happens, it will be aided tremendously by campaigns like yours and your friends, going around trying to get people to blame Biden entirely for something that at most he failed to act properly against. You will re-elect Trump, and you'll pretend the entire fucking time that you acted morally and it won't be your fault when it happens. Then you'll use your ass backward logic and say that the whole time it was Biden's fault for personally and gleefully killing children, and secondarily it will be every single person's fault who tried to caution you against this scorched Earth bullshit. Trump will destroy democracy and support Israel to the extreme and according to you it will be everyone's fault besides yours, because blaming the millennia of conflict in the middle east on the somewhat sane candidate during an election year was the moral thing to do and completely worth the risk.
You're either myopic fucking fools or you're campaigning for a fascist.
Its really easy to combine those two statements, I suggest a common conjunction. I find it hard to believe you don't want the genocide, but I don't think you want it. As in your actions indicate you do want it, but I think the underlying reason is different.
Biden is actively participating. Every time the U.S. has blocked a measure to stop the genocide, skirted Congress to continue providing weapons, and pushed Israeli propoganda has been on him. Acting like he has to get down there and strangle someone himself before you count him as involved is fucking wild. When the governments of almost the entirety of the world agree to try and stop Israel and the US is the lone holdout that says a lot.
or you're campaigning for a fascist.
You just can't help yourself can you. Pathetic.
Unless you're a political scientist I don't think you're qualified to say what is and is not doable in something as complicated as a holy war that is in no way a new thing.
Are you one?
Pathetic.
I thought you were familiar with conjunctions..? You just self-identified as an ignorant fool, but want to claim you're being unfairly characterized as a fascist. The choice was between the two, not that you're both.
You can't defend support for genocide, so you attack those who oppose it.
You know a lot of people really are as stupid as you take them to be, but many aren't. What you're doing here is obvious
Oh? what I am I doing? What's the newest baseless accusation are you going to throw at me because I don't like genocide?
People can see it, I'm not going to keep responding to someone who is quite obviously a bad faith actor.
You've said that before, but never miss an opportunity to lob abuse at anyone who opposes genocide.
People aren't upset because Biden isnt trying hard enough to stop Israel. We're upset because he's an active participant in what theyre doing. Using executive orders to bypass congress to get them more weapons.
I'll be nice and assume you're just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
No, don't worry, just like how the right-wing winning in the US will TOTALLY lead to the left-wing suddenly organizing and taking power, enabling genocide will actually STOP it.
God, the brilliance of this modern form of accelerationism, it's just... frightening, isn't it?
"First Hitler, Then Our Turn!"
Famous rallying slogan of the Weimar Communist Party
Famous just not real, it comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Höltermann from the SPD. I think it got misattributed in english because Americans didn't know the difference between social democrats and communists.
While said by Holtermann (though in a different sense - saying that after Hitler, the SPD will have to clean up; rather than saying Hitler will radicalize the working classes by his grotesque behavior), it was more prominent as a KPD slogan in opposition to a united front with 'social fascists' (the SPD).
If anybody could find anything at all written in the 1930s saying it's a KPD slogan, and not just people decades later calling it "well known" with no source and only in English with no explanation what it was in German, that would be really cool.
"Warum versagten die Marxisten", published 1934, mentions it as "Nach Hitler Kommen Wir"
The pro-Nazi periodical "Deutschlands Erneuerung" also mentions it as a slogan of the KPD in 1933.
I've found both of those before, the second one quotes it as "Herr Holtermann proudly predicted" so that doesn't work.
The first one based on Google Books is an unattributed chapter title, and searching doesn't find any German words for slogan or motto in it. And Rudolf Olden is prominent enough that I think someone would have cited it by now if he had a KPD attribution in there.
Oh right because the fascist whose party’s project 2025 proposal secures him as king and destroys democracy isn’t Hitler, the other guy because Israel. Meanwhile, Donny spent most of his propping up and outwardly supporting Bibi telling the world he’s the real friend of Israel. You complain about Zionism but support Fascism so what are you actually trying to accomplish?
It's the Civ Ghandi manoeuvre: Vote for the right wing until the value wraps around and you win!
The side effect is sadly that you are the first to fire nukes, but that's a fair price.
You ignore the other option in current criticisms of Biden. No, I don't want Trump to win, but it sure would be nice if Biden listened to criticism and stopped his current, weak "I told Netanyahu, 'Stop this, bub, or I'm going to get really cross with you. Now, listen here, I mean it this time!'" enablement of the genocide Israel is carrying out. He's apparently able to listen voters on stuff like not banning menthol cigarettes for fear of alienating black voters due to black smokers predominantly smoking menthols, yet when younger and more left-wing voters ask "Could you please stop fast-tracking Israel's ability to commit genocide so I can vote for you with a clean conscience?" the response is apparently, "Lol, get fucked."
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him. He can cave to pressure from a fraction of the African American population that smokes over something that will actively help kill them, but is seemingly committed to ignoring young voters across demographic groups to enable something that systematically murders innocent people, makes the US complicit in crimes against humanity and offers literally no tangible benefit to the US, but could get him some more of that sweet AIPAC money.
I just love how "leftists" accuse others of not taking fascism seriously enough and then post shit like this when the opportunity to put up actually presents itself.
When Fascists Vote, Not Voting is Collaboration.
That's not a platitude, that's basic math, and it's true even under a not absolutely fucked FPTP system like what we're stuck with right now, let alone with it.
When fascism is on the ballot, you vote against it or you are a collaborator. End of story. No debate.
If you need more convincing than just being informed that the other candidate is a fascist running on a platform of doing fascism, you are a collaborator.
If ten people are at a table and a Nazi can sit down at that table unchallenged, there are eleven Nazis at that table.
When fascism is on the ballot, you vote against it or you are a collaborator. End of story. No debate.
I'm voting against it. To be clear, that means a vote for Biden.
Biden should stop supporting genocide, and you should stop pretending that opposition to genocide is support for Trump.
Look, in past elections we didn't have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does. I think what has happened, and is continuing to happen, to those in Gaza is gut wrenching. As a father of a 4-year-old, I would be mentally eviscerated if I lost him. I would probably go from "father" to "extremist" in that instance, too.
It's hard for me to vote for Biden knowing his support for the state of Israel. I also know I want to be able to vote in the future. I want women to have bodily autonomy. I want marginalized groups to exist and not have their very existence removed from the vernacular. I want the government to remain an agnostic-ish state. I want our allies to stay allies (except for maybe the state of Israel) and our enemies to stay enemies.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn't so.
Look, in past elections we didn’t have to wonder if not voting for a candidate would have lasting implications for the future of this country and the freedom of the world. This election does.
I already said I'm voting for Biden. I don't need to be lectured into doing something I already said I'm gonna do.
I can also admit to not knowing everything about the geopolitical landscape to know just how much sway Biden may have in his support for the state of Israel. We like to think the president is a king and can snap his fingers to make his will THE will (see all the people thinking Biden can control gas prices, for instance), but that just isn’t so.
Biden circumvented congress to provide weapons that he knew would be used for genocide.
If withdrawing his support won't do anything, we aided a genocide for no reason other than Biden really fucking wanted to. If it will do something, his continued support makes the genocide possible. I do not buy any argument in favor of continuing support for genocide, because there is no good reason for genocide.
Expecting me to buy the "he isn't a king" line when he acted by himself without congress in order to sell Netanyahu weapons when he didn't have to is insulting.
If Biden loses, this will be entirely on him.
It's funny how little people believe in democracy whilst simultaneously claiming that their vote is too important to cast for an immoral cause.
If Biden loses, it is on all of us. If Trump wins, it is on all of us. If Biden wins, likewise, it is on all of us.
That's the cost of living in a somewhat-democratic fucking society. As much as some would love to have a king or a fuhrer or some friendly neighborhood oligarchs they could knuckle under and point to and say, "God help me, it wasn't me, it was all them!", it's not fucking there yet. And anyone with an ounce of fucking morality in them will fight to prevent it.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue? Exactly, this is entirely on Biden. You can make all the excuses you want, for anyone whose eyes aren't painted on, it's obvious what's going on.
Young voters turned out in record numbers in the last election, and they favored Biden by far, helping him win. But sure, Biden can turn his back on these voters, he did win by such a comfortable margin last time that he has no reason to be worried. He has nothing to gain by doubling down on his stance on Israel, and everything to lose.
I've seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don't vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
So Biden literally has no agency to change one stance that is overwhelmingly unpopular with young voters, many of whom are threatening not to vote for him over this issue?
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he's doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
I’ve seen so many excuses for why voters should feel they personally failed democracy if they don’t vote for Biden over his support for genocide, but not a single one of you have offered a reason why Biden should hold course on his Israeli policy, rather than correcting now, while he still has time. Again, there is zero benefit to the US for him to hold his current position.
He's in a lose-lose situation. Either way he loses votes, unless the anti-Israel sentiment accelerates even more. My opinion is that in a lose-lose situation, you should take the moral loss and not the immoral one - so I'm entirely in favor of cutting Israel off.
But if Biden doesn't change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he's still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it's one of those two old fucks that's going to be president.
When an equal or greater number of voters believe he’s doing the right thing, or needs to do more for Israel, and young voters are notoriously unreliable? In terms of political calculus, this is not a clear-cut strategic decision.
If young voters don't turn out for him in similar numbers as they did the last election, he's likely lost anyway. He's running a campaign on a knife edge, and alienating a demographic that was essential for his last win, which is a dumb move. Support for Israel tracks heavily with age, which coincidentally, tracks pretty decently with the likelihood to vote Republican, so there's a good portion of this block that were never going to vote for him to begin with.
But if Biden doesn’t change his position on Israel, despite voicing some responsiveness to current protests, he’s still better, and yes, including for the Palestinian people, than Donald Trump. And realistically speaking, it’s one of those two old fucks that’s going to be president.
No, it's just competing on degrees of awfulness. This is like saying you're going to fall victim to one of two murders; the first one will flay you alive and let you die of infections once they set in, while the second will shoot you 3 times in the face and make sure you're dead within ten minutes. You're arguing the first one is better because they prolong the agony, but the outcome is the same either way.
He’s running a campaign on a knife edge, and alienating a demographic that was essential for his last win
The pro-Israel moderate vote was also essential for his last win.
No, it’s just competing on degrees of awfulness. This is like saying you’re going to fall victim to one of two murders; the first one will flay you alive and let you die of infections once they set in, while the second will shoot you 3 times in the face and make sure you’re dead within ten minutes. You’re arguing the first one is better because they prolong the agony, but the outcome is the same either way.
Ah, so your opinion is that swift genocide is superior to delaying genocide. It's all the same in the end, right? Like how we all die in the end, so what's the difference between harsh circumstances and torture? All lives end in the same place, and circumstances don't determine possible courses of actions. And of course, it's not like circumstances can change, no, giving the Palestinian people more time to live will obviously have no possibilities that the swift extermination of the Palestinian people would extinguish.
Ridiculous.
Not what I said at all. Rather, you're acting as though one is actually a great option, and not just possibly slightly less terrible, if not ultimately the same. As though that thin chance was supposed to be something to actually get excited about someone backing.
I'm really excited about the prospect of NOT being thrown into a concentration camp, personally.
As shitty as life often is in the US, I don't want it to get worse. I'm very enthusiastic about that cause, not least because I live here.
I've said it many times - though he did much more than I was expecting him to when he won the primary in 2020 (Bernie voter here), Biden is still, at his core, a moderate, milquetoast, centrist, party-consensus politician with only a handful of solid positions that he's kept throughout his career, none of which are particularly radical anyway.
But fuck, you offer me a stale slice of bread with spread so thin you can only tell which side is buttered by the glint of the light, and a literal shit sandwich, I will very quickly and without hesitation take the stale slice of bread every goddamn time if those are the only available choices, no matter how much I might want real food. And if I see 49 people voting for EVERYONE to be forcibly fed the shit sandwich, I am going to be very vocal in trying to remind everyone else that it takes 51 votes for stale bread in order for all of us to not eat shit, and that eating shit is NOT a fucking acceptable alternative.
The menu isn't going to change today. We will have to fight for that. But while invaders are pushing a battering ram to our gates is NOT the time to have that fight.
Damn. That metaphor got a bit mixed. tl;dr; I am excited about not living under fascism, not excited for Biden specifically.
One candidate will cause a lot more deaths than the other.
The mental gymnastics is insane. The judges score you 10 out of 10.
I'll just go comment in the forum where Biden hangs out because that's totally a thing /s
Biden also supports Israel.
Found the genocide supporter.
I'll be nice and assume you're just stupid instead of actively trying to support the Zionist cause by letting their biggest supporter back into office.
You just go around spamming the same comment? When you vote for Biden the blood is now on your hands too.
Why not you just go around spamming the same nebulistic nonsense, without providing any actionable advice and promoting voter apathy. As far as I'm concerned you're a big part of the problem.
This account literally posted the same "Found the genocide supporter" comment under one of my comments in another thread when i called out a disgenuous user.
Cant even make up that level of projection. As if my hatred of the apartheid state wasnt the only consistent view ive held for the past 15 years or so. But, u know, better reduce nuanced position into something more easily digestable to discourage the youth on this platform from keeping the fascist out of office.
Why should they change their comment when the comment remains correct and unsuccessfully assailed?
They're repeating the comment because it's still right. This is called consistent messaging
Israel committed a far bigger land grab under Biden than under Trump
Israel’s largest land seizure since Oslo Accords deals fresh blow to Palestinian statehood
Biden rejects the Palestinian UN application
US vetoes widely supported resolution backing full UN membership for Palestine
Genocide Joe lies that israel isn't committing war crimes so he can send them more bombs to commit Genocide with
Leaked U.S. Memos Say Israel May Be Violating International Law In Blocking Gaza Aid
Trump cannot be worse for Palestine than Biden. Biden fully supports full Genocide of all Palestinians. Accusing opponents of Biden of being Zionist agents is top tier irony.
Comments like this are why no one should trust your motives
Strange how the people the jump in to question my motives are always those that actively defend israel.
"If you disagree with me, you like it when children are killed. "
Hmm who's normally making that argument?
Not republicans. That's definitely for sure.
Guys it's perfect. All you have to do is pretend that a) you're a Biden voter so you have credibility and b) you care about Palestinians. Anyone who questions you can instantly be considered a bloodthirsty racist monster. We can turn thousands of voters against Biden and all we have to do is pretend to give a fuck about these people. It's genius actually!
Collapses into a pile of furious masterbation
Edit: I responded to the wrong drone but everything but the Biden voter part here still applies