85% Of Car Drivers Break 20mph Speed Limits, Reveals U.K.’s Department For Transport
85% Of Car Drivers Break 20mph Speed Limits, Reveals U.K.’s Department For Transport
On roads with a 30mph maximum, 50% of car drivers break the law, says the annual DfT report on speed limit compliance.
Speed limit is enforced by road design, not by signs
You’re suggesting they add even more potholes to motorways?
Context is 20 mph steets, making them more complicated and narrower forces drivers to slow down to not hit anything. Straight and wide streets allow drivers to speed as they feel comfortable.
Motorways on the other hand encourage to speed with wide lines, long view distance, long turn radiuses, hard shoulder and long paint stips
A center line with floppy cone-pole things, barriers on the side (such as planters)(bonus it keeps pedestrians and cyclists safer and beautifies the area)
Etc
More round a bouts.
it's enforced by road design, and in some cases our desire to not murder children with our cars. call me autistic (I am) but I follow speed limits in residential areas even if the road is designed like a formula 1 track
I think its by fines actually.... Just got a $609 USD speeding fine... I speed less since then
Intuitive system suggesting correct behaviour is more effective than system encouraging to break law and them punishing for it severely
Well, that is a lot of money (for me and presumably you), but without proportional (to assets) fining it makes laws pay per use. In otherwords, money is not a good judge of character; people can have disposable income and ignore the same fine that changed your mind about speeding. And as another commentor said, preventing is better than punishment.
There are quite a few 20 mph roads near me where the only incentive to slow down is to avoid being caught be a speed camera.
The roads are wide and straight for long stretches, and going at the 20 mph limit just means you become an obstruction for the rest of traffic, even buses and lorries.
The design of the road and posted speed limits are sending mixed messages.
There's a concept in road design that says the engineer must first determine the design speed, which is basically how fast they want traffic to be able to flow. This part of the process is generally not part of any public hearing or put to a vote by public officials - it is just decided on and then they move on to the next step.
There's also a prevailing concept in road design that seems to indicate that high traffic speeds are a design issue, but low speeds are an enforcement issue. The road is designed to accommodate the highest amount of traffic anticipated in the future without really thinking about if that's even a good fit for the area.
Once the road has been built to exacting standards (which means it is far too wide and flat,) the city steps in and slaps a speed limit on it, often at odds with the design speed.
When residents get worried about all the speeding cars, they petition the city for a traffic study to see if anything can be done. The engineers conducting the traffic study determine that the road is capable of handling higher speeds than the current limit, and so to cut down on speeding the recommendation is to increase the posted limit.
It's amazing to me how much influence the engineering team has on the design with basically no accountability. You can try to reduce speeding by putting up speed traps and police patrols, but at the end of the day people will drive as fast as they are comfortable with and that is often a result of the design of the road they are driving on.
Yea around here we have 4 or more lane highways with 60mph speed limits. You could almost double that safely if people actually used the lanes properly when not passing. Instead we have to deal with a mix of assholes going all different speeds trying to get around the people going 60 in the left lane and god help you of there's a cop around.
Speaking as a person who does the limit (65 locally) in the right lane, sometimes the second to right lane in case there's a lot of entering/exiting traffic.... 120mph? What? The fuck?
Humans aren't designed to react to things at that speed. You need insane following distances to drive that speed safely. With all that extra following distance you don't get much more throughput (vehicles per unit time). But what you do get is a ton more fatalities, because at that speed, when you meet stationary objects, all you can do is hope you had your affairs in order. No amount of crash safety tests help there.
I gotta say, that if you're the person who's so frustrated about people driving the speed limit on a highway, you're the asshole. Like yeah, sure, they should be in the rightmost lane practicable. That's annoying, but it slows you down by a few mph for a minute or two and that's it.
If you want to move at 120+mph safely to your destination, take high speed rail. If you don't have that in your region, start complaining.
You may enjoy the YouTube channel, Road Guy Rob. He covers a lot of these issues and more. It's a niche channel for sure, but can be fascinating if you're into that kind of thing.
I think a large part of it is inappropriately making 30 mph areas 20mph and also poor enforcement.
I live on a long wide 20mph road and I can't stand the people going at 40, 50 or even 60 or 70 mph at times. But I don't think my road should have been 20mph, it should have been 30mph. It seems it was easier to stick some 20mph signs up to say "we've done something" as a way of discouraging some people going at more rediculous speeds and hope most go at 30mph.
Instead what was needed was actual investment in the road - speed bumps, narrowing the road with choke points and passing points, physical rather than painted cycle lanes - that kind of thing.
Fortunately after years of pressure our road is now going to be in a LTZ (Low Traffic Zone). Both ends of my own long road are blocked off to allow pedestrians and cyclists only through, and my main road is being split into 3rds with X-junctions being turned into filters(Instead of X it's now > and < with no connection). If you're driving you can only turn into one side street while cyclists and pedestrians can pass through as normal. We've had a trial for a while and it's been very effective - my whole block has been split up with filters so you can't use it to pass through to reach the main roads around it - this has stopped the arseholes using my road as a shortcut and speeding at 60 mph.
People are still going at 30mph but the twisting and turning through the block means you can't really get up to anything more than that and also unless you're going to a house in the block it's pointless to even enter.
So while I abhor speeding, I would argue these stats reflect bad road management - over relying on 20mph speed limtis as a cheap alternative to actual road management and redeisgns which are expensive (and difficult in many parts of the UK with lots of very old and narrow streets inherited from previous eras).
Speed bumps are the worst possible solution, they often mean if you're in a conventional car you have to come to a near complete stop and if you're in a large SUV you can cross at 20mph. This reinforces the trend away from conventional cars to higher ride height vehicles which is a disaster for road safety (especially pedestrian and cyclist safety).
They do successfully slow down the flow of traffic (and also cause traffic to follow alternative paths, at least until speed bumps are saturated in the area) but it fucks up emergency vehicle access and damages cars (increases wear and tear). The other road design solutions (more narrow roads, inclusion of roundabouts, addition of choke points etc) all are equally as effective as humps at reducing speeders and diverting traffic away from roads (in some cases they are better) and have none of the negative consequences, speed humps should never be used imo.
The speed bumps are supposed to be tailored to the target speed. There's some 40 km/h streets in my city with regular speed bumps and they're perfectly fine because the speed bumps are designed for that speed. They're quite shallow compared to the kind of speed bump you'd see in a 20 km/h parking lot.
Sky bridges or tunnels for pedestrians. Reduce the need for people to actually cross the street, where possible.
@PseudoSpock @BananaTrifleViolin, or we can design the road so driving at safe speeds is the intuitive choice.
Streets are for people and their daily activities. Roads are for getting to places quickly.
That just makes walking more difficult for the benefit of drivers.
Way too many people are speeding where I live too and I partly blame the road design as well. I've seen many places in Denmark where I live that they at some point reduced the limit from 60 to 50 or from 50 to 40 kmh with no modifications to the road design or obvious reasons like schools or crossroads. Or similarly you are driving along at 80 and then the limit changes to 60 but the road looks the same. I know it's usually because of safety or more commonly noise pollution or hidden sideroads. This doesn't make sense intuitively while driving because the road design signals higher speed than allowed. It's still no real excuse for driving too fast but I think it could solve a lot of the issue with better road design like "not just bikes" are also preaching in his videos
It's the same or higher here in the US based on my personal experience.
In the US speed limits are set by 85% of traffic speed on a road. So if the road was set for 30mph, and then you changed it to 20MPH with no other changes, you will immediately get 85% of drivers breaking the "limit."
Another way to say it is that UK's department for transport has incompetently designed 85% of their 20mph roads.
UK highways departments have had essentially zero budget for 2+ decades now. There's no funding to completely retrofit every single residential street to match the new signage. Most of them are already incredibly narrow and tight compared to your average North American street.
Hmm, sounds like the infrastructure for personal vehicles is pretty unsustainable, perhaps we should start closing off streets so that traffic will naturally be limited to locals only thus solving the problem from the demand side.
@PowerCrazy @mondoman712
The 85% rule is insane. Basically, it means that speed limits are set by the most dangerous drivers.
The streets in my town were set out over 120 years ago. But as usual, cars have usurped the rights of prior users to the point where KSIs or peds and cyclists run at 4x the UK rate, and I don't even live in Florida. I mean, jaywalking laws were brought in to ease drivers' consciences about the number of pedestrians they were killing.@PowerCrazy @mondoman712
Don't start me on public transit... 120 years ago my town had a fully-fledged tramway system which connected to other local systems spread over hundreds of miles centred on our local railway station.
The tracks were ripped up to provide space for parking...
Uh-oh! I got started!!!Oh for sure. Road design is a disaster for anything other then highspeed thorough-fares, which would be better off as trains. It sucks.
I don't think you realise how old some roads are in the UK. They predate the concept of a department of transport by a long time, in cases like they can only work with what they have.
Another way to say it, is that they haven't installed enough average speed cameras.
If you install a few of those, suddenly drivers do manage to keep to the speed limit.
The US system is stupid. Most drivers drive too fast and overestimate their driving capabilities.
Designing a street so that people naturally drive a given speed is a pretty well-solved problem and you don't have to expand the surveillance state to do it. Also it usually makes the road more pleasant for everyone!
Cool create perverse incentives that do nothing to physically stop a car from barreling down a residential street, but also generate tax revenue so now the government is further discouraged from fixing the problem of a car barreling down a residential street, lest they lose revenue. Good job!
At least 10% lied. Nearly everyone speeds.
If you’re out there, need to be in a car and for whatever reason find it hard to keep the car at 20mph - do what I do and use the speed limiter function (if you have one). Works a charm.
With or without the tech aid though, there’s no excuse.
Tbf 20 through a village where no one's about is insane
Depending on the surroundings it sounds quite sane. In the village I grew up in we had 20km/h (12-13mph) which i think was quite reasonable. When there are hedges and stuff to the side you need to be able to stop if someone walks out.
I believe it 100%.
I started riding with a Garmin bike radar and installed an app that tells me exactly how fast a car is going when it passes, and the majority are over the speed limit.
Just the other day, in a 60 km/h zone, I clocked two cars going 125 km/h.
If I thought for a second that police would charge these drivers using photo/video evidence, I'd fork over the $500 to get the radar with a camera built-in and report each and every speeding driver that passes me.
In Denmark we have the lovely new law that if you drive more than 100% over the speed limit and over 100 kmh or drive over 200 kmh at all or drunk driving with over 2‰ they confiscate the car and you are not getting it back at all. They confiscate the car regadles of who owns the car (with very few exceptions) and that is also if it is leased. So far since when the law started they have confiscated over 2000 cars in two years. It's my favourite law of all laws right now. The fine for driving crazy is also nicely proportional to your income and it removes the car so the person cannot just drive without license afterwards.
@TDCN Did you know a screenshot of your post is on Reddit (saw a bot post it here on Mastodon) https://redd.it/163foqd
@TDCN sounds great and would definitely be useful in #australia where there is continual news of unlicensed or habitually reckless drivers causing havoc. Maybe making owners responsible would start a shift in society where parents and friends need to their own role in this continuing drama.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 During my holiday in DK I already noticed speeding is not really a thing.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 the best law ever, and soooo sweet that this sucker got his new car confiscated: https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/shakhwan-ameen-ble-tatt-i-fartskontroll-i-danmark-_-far-ikke-tilbake-sin-splitter-nye-lamborghini-1.16446941
@TDCN @Showroom7561 Impossible in Germany 😄 But it sounds very good - and easy to understand
@TDCN @Showroom7561 I'll be honest I think it's an an odd stance to take to say confiscation is wrong. The 100 kmh limit is about 60 mph, to be over 100% that means the limit is 30 mph. This limit is normally through a town, village or urban area. So if someone drives at 60 mph down the high street, that's not just a "little bit of speeding", that's completely reckless
@TDCN @Showroom7561 In my hometown its kind of a hobby to rent fancy sports cars for the weekend and this is as stupid as it sounds. I would love this law for Germany as well.
@TDCN I do admire the Danish pragmatism endlessly. One of my favorite countries. Thanks for sharing.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 Personally, I think banning.someone from driving hurts them harder than loosing a vehicle, as one can't just get a new driving license - the loophole that allowed one to just make a new license in another EU member state has been closed for those barred from (re)issue of a license.
@Showroom7561 @TDCN all the "but they need a car" people in the comments should also take a look at the amazing public transit options in Denmark and think about how that could make their life great (especially us USians)
@TDCN @Showroom7561 like most fines, this just makes it legal for rich folk and potentially life-destroying for poor folk.
If this happens to a taxi driver, they might end up homeless. If it happens to a rich playboy they'll just go buy a new car and carry on speeding.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 Rich person drives 240kmh drunk out of their mind, loses expensive car, gets another the next day because it's still just pocket change to them.
Boyfriend "borrows" the old-but-working car of his abused girlfriend who's barely making it paycheck to paycheck, drives 110kph, her car gets seized and she now has no hope of escape.
An extreme comparison? Yes. But it illustrates that nice simple one-size-fits-all laws often have abhorrent results.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 This sounds terrific. Do you have a link to that law please. (In Danish is fine). I want to use it as an example for discussion leading up to my city’s elections next year. It will upset the many car brains who run my city. 😀
@TDCN @Showroom7561 do you have breathalyzer tests that actually work in normal use here? because if not this is just stealing cars, lol
@TDCN what is 2‰? I am not familiar with the notation. Is that 0.2%?
Yes! More of this. ESPECIALLY taking BMWs and Mercedes away from rich douchenozzles.
We need this in the US so badly.
@TDCN Sounds interesting. Does the law work - in the sense that it deters people from driving recklessly, or is it too early to tell?
@TDCN @Showroom7561
Two examples from Australian states:
https://www.police.vic.gov.au/hoon-laws
https://www.police.wa.gov.au/Traffic/Cameras/Speed/Hoon-driving
Just a few days ago the news carries pictures of a vintage Holden muscle car being crushed because the owner had been driving at 250 Kph in a 110 Kph zone.@TDCN @Showroom7561 do you know why they put the 100kmh limit on? Driving double the limit in an urban area is more likely to kill someone than a deserted rural road.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 it's a pity they don't have the same law for cyclists 😂 they're everywhere in Denmark. I was dodging them more than cars to be fair 🙈
@TDCN @Showroom7561 onfeel they should drop the driving to 50% over the speed limit ... Very generous with 100%
Hugz & xXx
@TDCN @Showroom7561 oooh! what happens in case of theft? Is it still confiscated from the owner?
@TDCN @Showroom7561 I really like this law in principle, but without *free* rehab, or really any other drug recovery assistance, and without a good social safety net, it does inordinately punish poor people. Yes, if the person is a rich asshole, 300% take *all* their cars. But sometimes the person is poor and using alcohol to just feel less shitty about their life and need the car to be able to have a job. Not that that's good, but it *is* a reason to not take their car...
@TDCN @Showroom7561 Sounds like a good idea indeed. Only one remark: what if the car is shared by 2 persons?
@TDCN @Showroom7561 I think you mean blood/alcohol level of .2% - at 2% you would be long dead. And .2% is not driving drunk, that’s driving practically passed out. To be that drunk a 50kg dude would need to have 7 drinks in an hour. That person needs detox, not a car.
https://www.healthline.com/health/alcohol/blood-alcohol-level-chart
@TDCN @Showroom7561 What would happen to Carsharing Organisations? Forcing them to drop these customers would be fine but confiscating their cars would be a very bad idea IMO.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 it's very nice as an idea, but I doubt it's constitutional, I fear that a good lawyer would be able to get back your car. You would need the money to hire a good lawyer though.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 So if it is leased, do they sell the car and pay off the lease? Or do you have to pay for insurance that covers the lease holder if this happens? I guarantee you the banks that finance leases are not just eating that.
Here in the USA it is almost routine for the drunk who finally causes a fatal accident to have six DUIs, a .15 BAC, and a revoked license at the time of the mishap.
@TDCN @Showroom7561 :ablobaww:
@TDCN @Showroom7561 it obviously shouldn't be proportional to your income, it should be set to the actual negative externality cost. this is a failure to understand basic economics. If we can save more statistical lives with the money from the tax then the statistical expected loss, then we want these people speeding and paying for it.
@Showroom7561 @mondoman712 what’s the name of the app and for which platform is it? Having the info about how fast someone overtakes one sounds very interesting.
You got a radar to check the speed of cars passing you?
The radar tells me when cars are approaching from behind and how far. It's been a massive gamechanger for safety by enhancing my spacial awareness.
There's an app for my bike computer that also captures speed and car counts using the radar.
I would imagine that aggregating this data from thousands of users could help cities to plan better cycling infrastructure and build traffic speed/flow mechanisms to enhance cyclist safety.
@Showroom7561 @mondoman712 the UK also has new amendments to the highway code about safe passing distances for bikes, horses, etc; my brother has front and rear cameras for his bike and the police are actually following up on his reports of drivers passing dangerously close, even at lower speeds. Sometimes things do change for the better
Yes, I recall someone in the UK posting videos of dangerous drivers and the follow up by police. Many of the consequences are light for the behaviors witnessed, but it's better than nothing.
Yeah, 5 over is my norm.
Same. Speeding tickets are so fucking expensive where I live. Guaranteed to be at least $300 at a minimum. I can't afford that, so I barely go over to mitigate the effect of being the slowest driver on the road. In general though, idgaf.
I also drive a Prius, so it's at least somewhat expected ha
What do you do with all those seconds you save each day?
Procrastinate.
Exactly why we need LTNs etc. Existing restrictions don't work!
I always thought that 20 mile an hour signs were just a good excuse for police to be able to pull over just about anyone they want
Based on my US experiences that number feels low tbh
@mondoman712
Only 85%?This sounds like a money-making opportunity. If 85% of drivers insist on breaking the law, they should pay. We can then use that money to redesign the road for more traffic calming.
Drivers going 30mph in a 20mph haven't done anything wrong, the road designers have failed by making unreasonable speed limits, shown by the fact that it is ignored by 85% of people
That soudns great. But why spend that money on traffic calming? Let's just use that money to install additional speed-camera's and build more roads that encourage more speeding. Revenue generation must be priority number one for every government!
If 85% breaks a speed limit, they should revise that limit because there is clearly something wrong with it.
Or, alternatively narrow and calm the road, because something is wrong with it. If a 20mph limit is set, there's probably a good reason, but it's not good enough to just put up the signs, you need to make people feel uncomfortable driving more than that on the road via calming measures.
There is evidence that 20mph zones do save lives and injuries even if people don't obey them. This is because they still drive slower than they would in a 30mph zone.
I would agree, however, that if the limit is set to 20mph then the road design needs to be changed to match that, making it uncomfortable for drivers to exceed the limit. Unfortunately the UK is quite institutionally poor at this kind of traffic calming design compared to some of its neighbours.