Get a grip, pug. Just accept it and move on…
Blahaj has Blahaj rules - don’t like them, then don’t comment and/or visit.
Every instance has rules - you’ll never agree with all of them; but isn’t that the entire point of federation, i.e. decentralisation?
Blahaj has Blahaj rules - don’t like them, then don’t comment and/or visit.
This meme is explicitly referencing an incident that happened entirely off of Blahaj in which Blahaj stans harassed a trans user into leaving the Fediverse.
Yea, it’s like going to a christian household for dinner and eating before grace. They don’t expect you to participate in the prayer but the least you can do is not start eating before they’re ready in their own home. And if they do a little grace for themselves while at your house you leave them alone. Sure it’s a little weird to sit their with a bowed head while they leave their magic diety a voicemail but it’s not harmful and they aren’t asking you to convert in order to eat supper.
The same can be said for being even vaguely accommodating for a vegan friend who’s visiting and not making them feel like they aren’t allowed to eat. They won’t stop you eating meat and the least you can do is make sure that forks for meat and vegetables remain separate.
Yea, it’s like going to a christian household for dinner and eating before grace. They don’t expect you to participate in the prayer but the least you can do is not start eating before they’re ready in their own home
Again, as stated in the meme, all of this happened on an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT INSTANCE, and Blahaj felt the need to intervene.
Sure it’s a little weird to sit their with a bowed head while they leave their magic diety a voicemail but it’s not harmful and they aren’t asking you to convert in order to eat supper.
They drove someone off for daring to have Wrongthink. Kind of sounds like they are asking to convert to eat supper - even at another table.
I got called transphobe yesterday for pointing out that most mobile apps don't show display names or profile pictures, meaning the person they replied to wouldn't have had the same information they have.
They went a dozen comments deep with multiple users, screaming transphobe at every single person who disagreed with them.
Some people really need a bit of perspective on the situation.
I think I saw that exchange yesterday. Was it the person that absolutely freaked out over another user being called a male term? (I can't remember exactly what it was, I want to say "son" but I don't think that was it). I use Voyager and I don't see profile pictures or even any descriptions on people's profiles. I didn't even know that existed until that person was freaking out and calling everyone transphobes for not knowing.
I understand that transphobic people exist online.
We also need to recognize that being trans doesn't mean that you're incapable of being an asshole, engaging in cyberharassment or any other negative social behaviors that all people are capable of.
Much like OP, I've been attacked by these people for supporting trans people in a way that wasn't popular (I.e. not brigading Twitch streamers and harassing children playing Legacy of Hogwarts). I saw a user banned for saying to donate to the Trevor Project instead of brigading and I spoke up in support of them.
I was banned for "transphobia".
There are absolutely mods/admins using their power in trans social spaces to attack and purge people for no reason other than that they're not fully aligned with whatever dogma the mod feels is correct.
I just don't even try to interact anymore. There will always be some chronically online commenter or mod who wants to try to deconstruct your every word choice looking for an angle to accuse you of saying something outrageous.
Alienating allies and bullying people out of the community is toxic and wrong, regardless of your being a member of a minority group.
I have several trans friends these days and two of them were friends all the way back in highschool, in a different city. They’ve recently found themselves distant from one another because there is a clash in ideologies.
One lays lower, goes about their business, and goes to queer events and all that stuff, though they’re still out there visibly trans. The other is very much an activist and will straight up yell at people on the street, I hear, and protests they organize have had at least one physical clash, to my knowledge. I can’t blame either of them, really, for the caution in these volatile times or the aggression when they’re pretty much the only group of people reliably standing up for their rights. The specific issue that came up was a whole thing, but suffice it to say there was a disagreement on tactics similar to what you mentioned.
Ultimately I think the no interaction thing is not a bad play. Allies or no, we aren’t them and while some communication is good sometimes it’s important to be reminded that we’ve entered someone else’s space. Not only someone else’s space, but space belonging to people who are constantly harrassed and feeling cornered just by existing and who will understably defend what little they do have with a maybe…overzealous approach. By the stories here are they handling it well? God no, that sounds wild, but my point still stands.
It goes for any margainalized group, I suppose, that by nature of being pushed aside one lives in a world where they must speak multiple “languages” and learn about how to live in more than one way. They end up generally being better people for it, but that doesn’t at all mean that every single one is better. For all the supportive, kind, and otherwise chill trans people there are still a very small handful who do things like forget who their allies are or even who go way off the deep-end and support the GOP or whatever equalivalent in their country.
I understand why it exists in online spaces, at the same time it's on every person to speak up against bad behavior.
I didn't magically become transphobic because someone was an asshole to me and I can empathize with what caused the behavior.
These kinds of reactions are still wrong and is harmful on both the individual level and to the community writ large. Because of that, people should not feel pressured to accept bad behavior or blamed for not walking on egg shells.
We all have the right to be treated with respect and dignity.
I'll most likely be banned for this, but I guess they can support attack helicopters if they want. I just thought we were done with that joke over a decade ago, but it apparently only changed flavors.
They tried again with a drone themed username, and claiming the neopronoun "droneself"
I haven't seen anything from that username recently though.
those users were banned long long ago
The main admin and several users expressed support for that very canard.
Up until that user shared private messages with Ada in a post. Then involved their "friend" (or rather an alt account) to apologise.
It was such a bloody mess.
If I made an alt and started calling myself a Flea BIsexual, do you think that they'd catch on?
Let them ban anyone they don't like from their instance. Also, report or ban them when they abuse others on other instances. If it is a self-inflicted isolation, it will be fairly earned.
Self-defense is a universal right. Those who attempt to take away that right unavoidably become representatives of fascism. You never silence a voice that argues self-defense, you defeat its arguments (objectively and thoroughly).
Moving forward tentatively, it's not about disengaging from a conflict. One needs to take a step back, use a method to clear their mind and view the situation without emotional attachment. Then attempt to solve the conflict into a acceptable or at least tolerable outcome. A conflict left unresolved will only fester into aggression and violence.
Simply moving on and allowing a perceived slight go unresolved does not work unless the objective solution found is to move on.
While the loss of a user is sad, people come and go. The better solution is to use the situation and apply the proper reports against those who target and abuse other users.
While the loss of a user is sad, people come and go. The better solution is to use the situation and apply the proper reports against those who target and abuse other users.
Tools like raising awareness of the behavior of a community and its admins?
I considered more in the vein of reporting the specific posts in question on their respective instances. Or using mod tools where available to ban problematic users from your own instances and communities.
But if you think it works, any solution you find should be sought. Even if it doesn't lead to the expected results, fighting for a fairer environment is rarely a wrong thing to do.
Pugjesus, I'm not directing this at you, it's more an opportunity to express this stuff when it isn't coming up in a community where this discussion isn't disruptive. This C/ is usually okay with discussion about the subject of a meme, so I'm taking the shot while it's fresh in my mind.
Look, in an ideal setting, this wouldn't be an issue because blahaj could wall itself off and be the trans dedicated space it needs to be.
Unfortunately, lemmy is not only difficult to use that way, but there's still a need to interact with outsiders because there's a war on. They need allies to have access, the users to be able to interact with other instances, and for trans people on other instances to be able to interact there.
They're going to fuck up because there's no way to make all of that work without admin oversight being high. There's always going to be human error, biases, and outright moments of emotional decisions. It happens everywhere.
But we gotta be realistic here. When blahaj admins fuck up, they're fucking up because they represent a populace that's under attack from the outside and the inside. There's a dozen topics that simply aren't one sided, which means any of those topics needs judgement calls.
Those of us that aren't blahaj users can STFU and mind our own when it comes right down to it, because it isn't our space. That goes for me too, if I end up banned for something I say elsewhere. Our trans compatriots fucking deserve a space where they can work this kind of thing out, even if that means a lot of mistakes along the way.
And the admins of blahaj are making mistakes. So are some of the users. The questions are, what are those mistakes, which users, and how can there be an objective decision as to what's the best path? I sure don't have a right to decide those things for blahaj, so my opinions are essentially farting in the wind. All I can do is support the trans community as a whole, and hope that blahaj finds a balance that allows the users and admins to have a space that is as free of interference and hate as is possible in this fucked up world.
Now, while preemptive bans are a damn difficult tool to use well, they are a valid tool. I personally wouldn't have used them in every case that's shown up on the various C/s about mod/admin actions, but I also don't have access to everything an admin would. There may be reasons I can't see. But I would have used it in a few of those cases. I prefer preemptives to be a scalpel rather than a scythe, but sometimes you have to cut.
One of these days, I'll finish up my thinking on the whole xenogender aspect of things, and maybe what I end up with as an opinion will get me banned from blahaj if/when I share it somewhere. If that's the case, I'll be sad because I genuinely love the people there, and I love the community. But if that's what's needed to keep that society community and those people able to have their own space in a world that's trying to literally eradicate them, so be it.
Wars never happen without harm to real people, and a lot of the war against trans people is a war waged with words and ideas. So neutering the words of war being able to besiege the instance seems like a worthy strategy to me.
Unfortunately, lemmy is not only difficult to use that way, but there’s still a need to interact with outsiders because there’s a war on. They need allies to have access, the users to be able to interact with other instances, and for trans people on other instances to be able to interact there.
So they choose to alienate allies and drive around trans people on other instances from the Fediverse entirely for wrongthink?
That seems counterproductive.
They’re going to fuck up because there’s no way to make all of that work without admin oversight being high. There’s always going to be human error, biases, and outright moments of emotional decisions. It happens everywhere.
Okay, so when is it no longer acceptable? Is it decided that they just get a total pass for all behavior because it's a trans-friendly space, so long as you're trans in a way that agrees with the mob mentality? If you aren't, of course, then you're a transphobe and a fascist.
Those of us that aren’t blahaj users can STFU and mind our own when it comes right down to it, because it isn’t our space.
It seems that Blahaj doesn't regard its space as having any borders.
Our trans compatriots fucking deserve a space where they can work this kind of thing out, even if that means a lot of mistakes along the way.
Apparently, not all trans compatriots are deserving.
And the admins of blahaj are making mistakes. So are some of the users. The questions are, what are those mistakes, which users, and how can there be an objective decision as to what’s the best path?
So, what, don't criticize Blahaj, don't point out anything negative they do, just let them do what they want because there's no 'objectively' correct answer? That wouldn't fly for any other community or admin team. Why here?
I sure don’t have a right to decide those things for blahaj, so my opinions are essentially farting in the wind. All I can do is support the trans community as a whole, and hope that blahaj finds a balance that allows the users and admins to have a space that is as free of interference and hate as is possible in this fucked up world.
And when the community on Blahaj harasses trans users off the Fediverse entirely for wrongthink? Is supporting Blahaj then supporting the trans community?
Now, while preemptive bans are a damn difficult tool to use well, they are a valid tool. I personally wouldn’t have used them in every case that’s shown up on the various C/s about mod/admin actions, but I also don’t have access to everything an admin would. There may be reasons I can’t see. But I would have used it in a few of those cases. I prefer preemptives to be a scalpel rather than a scythe, but sometimes you have to cut.
I think you're going way out of your way to justify what you realize are, visibly, bad decisions.
Wars never happen without harm to real people, and a lot of the war against trans people is a war waged with words and ideas. So neutering the words of war being able to besiege the instance seems like a worthy strategy to me.
By waging a war of words against trans folk who don't believe 'correctly' in other instances entirely?
The formatting makes it hard for me to follow, so apologies if/when I fuck up
As best as I can pick up, you're saying that, overall, you feel that the decisions being made on an admin level are divisive and harmful. That part of why that is, is because it draws a hard line about acceptable beliefs, particularly when voiced.
AND, that when those actions/decisions are being applied away from their own instance, that it crosses a line.
Secondary to that, you believe that it has/will cross over into the very kind of fascism that's warring against trans people in the first place.
Like I said, the formatting is fucking with my ability to interpret things because my brain likes to not see words right even on the best days. I'm going to go forward with the above as my assumptions, and if I've missed something, or I'm just wrong in my assumption of your meaning, please correct me because I don't have anyone available to read the sections that I'm having trouble seeing right, it isn't me being obtuse or anything. Well, no more obtuse than normal for me.
My response to that is that you have a point, a valid point. It is always dangerous to split a populace against itself, even in the name of preserving that populace.
However, in parsing the actions of admins, it's important to look at what their goals are, and what the principle is that they're fighting for.
It comes back to the neopronouns/xenopronouns debate. That's really where and when these preemptive bans have occurred, at least that I've run across.
Let me approach things a little backwards from how I usually do.
I have changed my opinion about neopronouns in general, to a stance that more closely matches the policy of blahaj; that in general respecting someone's pronouns is fundamental to the fight for trans rights. It's only one aspect, but it's a core aspect because it relates to the entirety of how everyone relates to and thinks about gender.
The problems on blahaj started not with basic, widely known neopronouns. It started once people started using individualized pronouns, akin to me wanting my pronoun to be "south", or "sam". Some of those neopronouns are a type of neopronoun called xenopronouns.
My opinion of neopronouns as a whole used to be that they are a problem because they're just too confusing, and are too arbitrary, and that they are (because of that) harmful to the trans rights efforts. Kind of a "wrong fight, wrong time" thing.
The reason I changed my opinion is that pronouns are something placed on us by external powers. Like gender, they are assigned to us. While having they/them as an option for people that don't align with masc/fem binaries is a good thing, the fact that it's still imposed by external powers means that the concept itself is part of the structure of oppression.
Neopronouns, like xe/xer/xhem, address that in one way, and it's an important thing that we consider them, and a vital thing that when someone is saying "here, these are generic words that satisfy the needs of English grammar, but respect my differences". That concept is largely the first big wall that the fight hits. "What, how dare you change my language?" "You're forcing your beliefs on me, you transism crazy!"
So, if I, as an ally, can't at least try to follow that concept, am I really an ally?
But then we hit the second wall, individualized pronouns. Respecting those is a shit ton harder because they aren't generic. You have to remember each one for each person. That's a much higher and harder ask. You're going to run into people that can't keep track, even if they're willing. You're asking not for a few new words, but for retraining people's entire language pathway in their brain. Neurologically, it's easier to learn a new language than to rebuild years or decades of the patterns of a learned language that have "etched" pathways in the brain, physically.
So, is it worth fighting for? Well, my previous opinion was hell no. It has changed to a qualified yes. See, the fight for trans rights is not a single offensive. Trans people are attacked at multiple levels, and thus the tools used, and the defensive strategies have to be multi-front as well. It is still my opinion that it is a much lower priority in general. However, when you're trying to create a space where people are supposed to be away from the fight, where they're supposed to be at least off the front lines, can you really ignore that individualized pronouns are just as valid and important as generic neopronouns?
I don't think you can, and that's been the stance of blahaj administration. And that is divisive. It's causing strife for anyone and everyone that doesn't agree with respecting those neopronouns because they're individualized. But, if you don't take the stance that every individual must have their pronouns respected, you're allowing strife and division by allowing the fight behind your lines.
So, now the admins are in the fight. They have limited choices for those in their camp. They either fight for a core right: to be recognized and respected, or they refuse to fight for that right and abandon those for whom the language is most hurtful for.
They made their choice. They decided it was the right fight to have. The implemented an in-instance rule, and enforced it.
But, they aren't in a fort. They're in a city, and cities don't have gates these days. So they can't stop people from attacking behind their lines without building gates (aka defederating), or instituting border guards that prevent known and suspected enemies from entering. They went on the offensive, applying bans to people that weren't in their city, effectively telling the guards not to let those individuals in.
This is, again, a dangerous tactic. It is one that risks internal rebellion and increased external attacks. But, it is an effective tactic. If done right, not only will those individuals no longer be let in, but others will have to consider whether or not they want in as well. They become aware, via posts like this one, that it is a war, and that they will fight. And, that they don't care where you are, if you fuck with their people even indirectly, you aren't welcome.
That's a powerful thing. Looking at it from the outside, it's brilliant, if they intended even part of that. I don't know their intent, it could be pure spite, but it looks looks like someone not fucking around.
The trans people that should be safe there, but aren't because they object to individualized pronouns? That's a problem because they deserve a space that's as fiercely defended. They're left out in the cold, so to speak, since there's only one other instance that's titularly trans safe, and it's pretty well despised and defederated.
But now, they do have the same choice I've had; to really look at my objections and see what they mean, to see if maybe, maybe there's something to it.
And, of equal importance, so does anyone that runs across a post complaining about it. All of us, allies, enemies, undecided, we see this kind of thing, and there's an opportunity to really think instead of reacting. To examine what it is that we object to, why we object, and fully, consciously decide where we stand. Not everyone will. Most people will just reinforce their previous beliefs and that's that for them. Some will think about it, and their end decision is to not change their beliefs. Some might even change against neopronouns. But some are going to find themselves staring at something in their mind and realizing it doesn't match what their principles are, and change that way.
Managing all of that? Making that fight, nobody is going to get it right every time. But it's a fight worth having. If it turns and rots into a form of fascism, then blahaj falls, and that will be a bad thing. But I believe that, so far, it's being done for the right reasons, and in scale with the incidence of incursions.
You don't believe that. I can't blame you. You aren't a random account with no history and mostly lurking. You're definitely not transphobic. I don't think anyone looking at your history could come to that conclusion and be taken seriously. There have been other people banned in the same way that, like you, not only aren't enemies, want to be and generally are allies. Tbh, anyone saying that about you can go fuck themselves, and I'll gladly tell them that directly, should I see it happen. You disagree with one issue among many, and not in an egregious way. If Ada or another admin asked my opinion, I'd tell them to reverse the ban and try engaging with you instead. And tell them they were being assholes if they don't at least consider it
Fuck, this is way longer than comfortable reading length on a screen. And I didn't even get to the xenopronoun part of things. And it's important. It's the other big issue that people attack over. I'm not sure whether to keep going, or break that into a separate comment in response to this. I think that's what I'll do, because it keeps coming up, and it needs addressing.
But pug, even if you decide to skip it. Even if you ran into the wall of text and skipped this far to see if I had a point. I get it. I get your frustration, I get the point you're making. It's a valid point. It's one worthy of discussion. It's all about when and where.
Do not buy at IKEA then
What did I miss
I was in dbzer0 when I made some initial comments, in response to being called a transphobe (I contended that I was not a transphobe). I was banned by Ada, the Blahaj admin, for that. I then made a post on YePowerTrippingBastards (in dbzer0), being somewhat miffed that I was banned from another instance entirely, one which I don’t even use, for the crime of defending myself against accusations of transphobia.
The trans commenter who is leaving the Fediverse was banned, and again, this is for activity in dbzer0, by commenting on that post. They then made a post questioning the logic of that, and were subsequently accused of being a transphobe and a fascist for daring to object by Blahaj’s ‘brave’ defenders. The harassment was concentrated enough that they hit 100 comments in less than half a day and drove the trans user in question to leave the Fediverse entirely.
This is apparently a victory for the trans community. /s
nothing surprising
Nothing important. PugJesus got banned from Blahaj for gatekeeping and now they're making post after post whining about it. Kinda sad honestly, they should get over it.
Spare yourself the trouble and just...
No tankies, no trans extremists, life is good over here 🤗
PS: I will obviously block any extremist right and conservative instances. I've just been fortunate enough to not encounter any of them so far.
Not to mention they ban you and call you transphobe for calling out misinformation or voicing your opinion about injustice unrelated to transsexuals, and with zero undertones of trans hate.
Hey look, a liberal that doesn't like queer people! Who could've guessed :D
Hey look, a liberal that doesn’t like queer people! Who could’ve guessed :D
I dislike queer people so much that I [checks notes]... am upset that a queer person was harassed off of the Fediverse...?
Wow, this really emotionally affected you. Honestly, I would just turn off the computer and walk away, but being as this appears to be some mix of ego hurt and hurt feelings, I'm guessing I'm gonna be reading about this for a minute.
Honestly I wish you would just drop it and move on with your life. I wouldn't want to be a part of a community that didn't want me, and you are clearly unwanted.
Honestly I wish you would just drop it and move on with your life. I wouldn’t want to be a part of a community that didn’t want me, and you are clearly unwanted.
I'm literally not part of the community. I haven't posted there in forever. I found the fact that they dogpiled and bullied a trans user for wrongthink on another instance entirely, calling them a transphobe and a fascist, revolting.
I agree. How many posts are going to be made regarding this topic? This one seems totally redundant.
I agree. How many posts are going to be made regarding this topic? This one seems totally redundant.
How horrific that one post was made about Blahaj users bullying a trans user off the Fediverse. Clearly, this topic is oversaturated.
Almost like the real motivation is just apologia for harassing trans folk who disagree with Blahaj.
The more discussion I see about trans people, both for and against, the less tolerance I have for all of it. I'm becoming both anti-trans and anti-cis. Just let people live they way they want, and try to respect it up to some reasonable level of effort. The whole gender thing is bs in the first place.
Anti trans and anti cis? So you just hate everyone?
I think that was their point, that the topic of trans rights/life/culture/whatever-you-want--to-call-it being auch a popular, contentious subject is driving them to dislike everyone involved. I can certainly understand how seeing a topic again and again when you don't personally care about it can engender (hehe) negative feelings. I don't really understand not caring about this, though. Maybe they just don't have any trans friends/relatives, and that lack of personal connection lets them remain aloof from the issue. Maybe they're just a jerk (doesn't seem like they are, though). Who knows.
Reposting this when the admin is prowling other instances to seek reasons to ban people who don't even use her instance, and then bully trans folks who disagree with them in the process to the point of driving them off the Fediverse entirely, calling them transphobes and fascists, is what you give a 'thumbs-up' to?
I'm not really surprised.
Fuck that was fast.
Boot-flavored Kool-aid
