Yeah, let's stop with this "don't judge people for their poiltics" bullshit

How are those different?

Do you know who coined the phrase If you're not with me you are against me? George Orwell. Even being 'neutral' means you passively support whatever bullshit the 'winner' wants to do. Inaction is as much a choice of action as doing something. If you have a fire extinguisher and there is a person literally on fire but you simply do nothing, you are as responsible for the person's horrific death as the person who set them on fire.

Saying 'I am completely neutral in this regard' when Elon Musk and his cronies are actively plundering the government and absolutely destroying the government's ability to investigate the crimes and misconduct that they are committing, as well as destroying the livelihoods and lives of millions of people, means you are fully accepting of what is going on, that it is normal and if they want to do it, they can go ahead.

Haha wait a minute.

Are you... Are you trying to justify your Uncommitted BoTh SiDeS bullshit?

• As though drinking the lesser poison is as bad as drinking the greater poison.
• As though this not only means you're opting for this, but you're contributing to the current that forces others to do the same by enabling the greater poison?
• As though just because you weren't necessarily the person to rat out Anne Frank, you also didn't lift finger to resist the Nazi oppression that makes one superior? Looking the other way and sitting on the couch?

Because if this is the case, then yes, there are people like me who utilize logic & ethics to demonstrate that said people are, indeed, a part of the problem and enabling of fascism.

For me, this is the most maddening comment about our situation. The economy has done better under democratic leadership since we’ve kept track.

They're capable of feeling shame, just not for what you or I feel shame for.

The trick is to find out what hurts them.

What amazingly good acts have they done to outweigh their support of such evil? The genocide in Gaza will be completed and climate change will get significantly worse.

As a Leftwinger (real one, not the American notion of left-of-Trump being Leftwing) this is something I've though about a lot.

For example, most people are driven to some level or other by Greed: for example, if you think about it, when people from the "Working class" demand things for the "Working class", are they driven by a pure desire for equality or is it really about benefiting themselves as members of the "Working class"? Ditto for "Positive Discrimination" being demanded by people who will benefit from it - is it really about equality or is it Personal Upside Maximization hidding behind the "group"?

Choices driven by Greed above all often collide with the whole "Greatest good for the greatest number" principle of the Leftwing.

Anyways, "screw you, my moral standpoint is different so I don't care about what you say" as an absolute rule is how the Left fragments, so indeed an absolutist take of "If your Moral standpoint is not exactly the same as mine I won't listen to you" is self-defeating in the strategical sense.

Then again, going totally in the opposite direction - i.e. no people should be shunned due to their Moral standpoint - also ends up with some weird results: if somebody has a moral standpoint that "Slavery is just the Weak being put in their proper place by the Strong, and as Strong people they're superior hence have a right to chose what others do" (I almost puked a little in my mouth writting this), should we really try to do anything else than shun people whose moral standpoint is that?

Personally my compromise is that some Moral standpoints are unnacceptable and those who hold them do not deserve any attempt at finding a middle point between me and them - in other words, even in Morality there are red lines - and whilst we should indeed listen to those who are on the right side of those red lines even if we don't quite have the same Moral standpoint, those on the wrong side of those red lines are beyond salvation and not worth the effort.

I don't think the point here is "I should be able to convince you", it's "We're not friends anymore, because you're a genuine piece of shit from a moral standpoint".

If Trump voters could be convinced they wouldn't have voted trump, so this doesn't change my calculus.

Reading through this thread I understand the gist of your statement but you never said what you would recommend?

Fuck that, this is just another rendition of the centrist/both sides bad/fascist apologizer number. Everyone that voted for this deserves to be ridiculed and called out to face the reality that they have forced upon the rest of us. Maybe then the lesson will stick. We tried the polite way and millions of people spat in our face. We do not have to take the higher road.

Famously didn’t work for republicans! Oh wait.

Go on bb. Say it with your whole chest. These ellipsis look bad on you. You believe it, say it. Tell us how fascists and liberals are the exact same thing. Go on. We are waiting.

"The oppressed should work towards their own murder, in solidarity with all the other oppressed folk being murdered!

It won't stop anyone from being murdered, but it'll make those of us not in any danger feel really pure 😊"

I'm not having that argument again. I understand the position that they were equally bad, and I support the rights of folks who couldn't vote for either of them because of that. But while I do acknowledge that US imperialism is not just a meme, I had to work with what I was given, and that was bad or less bad. I chose less bad.

I respect that others saw it differently and that's all I have to say on the matter.