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In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you're saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi's that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
Since you are still under the impression that Hamas indiscriminately killed civilians, here's a nice video explaining what really happened on oct7
is all of this compiled anywhere else? bullet points or something with links?
i believe it, but i won't spread it unless i can verify it.
Yes this video is actually addressing his article which is filled with links and evidence:
Netanyahu’s War on Truth - Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
If you skip the chapter "intelligence failures" and go straight to "Information warfare" you'll find evidence for all his claims in the video.
the entire article fully formatted in markdown
i would have pushed it here as a reply but it surpassed the maximum character count. you might find it useful for supporting your arguments in the future.
Being an asshole rarely brings people to your side
You're right I have repeated myself a lot over the last months which tends to get tiring but this person might not yet be up to date.
I will rephrase my previous comment thank you for pointing it out.
So what you're saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi's that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
I can't say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go "your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages", which couldn't be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
Random gore videos from syria and other places and some rape videos from different time and regions. I was scared as a muslim but my friends said be brave, idf is good at spreading false information and it really did happen.
You mean all those videos are fake?
No. Misinformed. Most of them were real videos but were not related to palestine or israel.
Is the video where toilet boxes at the music festival are getting shooted at not related to Palestine or Israel?
Can you provide a link?
Video: Hamas releases footage of music festival carnage, gunmen shoot at toilets - India Today https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/hamas-desert-rave-party-music-festival-south-israel-video-attack-toilets-palestine-war-2448868-2023-10-14
Looks legit but guess who was not using single bullets. Also you linked an indian article, dont do that if you are asked for a source. India today looks like another month piece of Modi's fascist govt.
I took one of first results from Google, and it says hamas published it so... You can Google for other sources if you like.
I don't get what you mean by not using single bullets. Are they using special bullets?
And what does this video being legit brings to the table? It doesn't prove that Palestinians were doing a massacre?
Many of the videos are real. Hamas definitely shot some civilians. The problem is all the burnt bodies.
If you ask the question "How did Israel count 250 burnt Hamas fighters as Israeli civilians" the narrative falls apart.
I don't think such a question is what a theoretical judgment should end with.
I'd like to ask a question "is there an explanation of logic behind the attack on October 7?".
The only explanation I can come up with is that hamas wanted a lot of Palestinians to get killed. This fits more points in a "hamas doesn't care about Palestinians" narrative, than any other explanation would fit the "Israel doesn't care about Israeli" narrative.
The explanation is that Israel has been effectively laying seige to them for 30 years, and they found a chance to actually hurt them and seized it. There was no other choice available to them. If some Palestinians survive this, it will be more than would have survived without the 10/7 attack
What are you talking about? Did you see Gaza population charts for last years?
There's a similar fallacy that's often applied to USSR under Stalin: when you compare populations in 1930 to 1934, IE appx the length of the devastating famine they experienced, you'll see that it declined something like 20% over that time. People who generate propaganda about communism will say that something like 30 million people died during it, by subtracting the numbers, and ignoring the fact that birth rates had been steadily dropping for years as the famine grew worse. What actually happened is that 5-8 million died, and 22 million were never born.
My point being that it is inherently pretty misleading to use population data as the majority of your evidence. The most reliable evidence we have, IE our eyes and ears, shows us that Israel is deliberately harming and often killing Palestinians, under the logic of being a superior race. We can quibble about data all you like, the fact is that Israel is most certainly committing genocide.
I understand what you mean here, but what you stated before basically means that somebody assumed that without October 7 attack, Palestinians will die out.
This reminds me how Putin mentioned that one of reasons for his invasion was that Ukraine bombed Lugansk and Donetsk for 8 years, while freely available data shows that during last few years there were only about 20 casualties per year. This can't justify the aggression, same as the above can't justify the October 7 attack.
I saw all the videos of Oct7.
They took hostages because israel has illegally kidnapped many Palestinians and tortures them in prison without trial before oct7. And Hamas wants to trade their hostages for the Palestinians hostages kidnapped by israel.
How many hostages does Israel hold?
So is it okay to propose that hamas could have a success if they captured the same amount?
No israel would still kill all the hostages held by Hamas. Their government doesn't care about hostages.
Did hamas know that all along?
Hamas knows that the israeli government will try their best to kill all israeli hostages, this is known as the Hannibal directive.
But they hoped the israeli populace would pressure their government harder
Hamas knows that the israeli government will try their best to kill all israeli hostages
That is unlikely as there is no record of that directive being (allegedly) invoked after 2016 towards civillians.
But they hoped the israeli populace would pressure their government harder
Pressure their government harder to do what exactly?
Israel is still in the wrong for retaliating to 10/7 at all. If you punch a guy in a bar, then he punches you back, you aren't then allowed to retaliate to the retaliation. Throwing a 3rd punch would mean you are both the starter of the fight, and also responsible for perpetuating it
Exactly, its not Israel that started this war, if you go stab a bear its not really the bears fault when it mauls you.
The bear isn't a democratic society with moral obligations not to commit ethnic cleansing.
Do you think the history of Palestinian/Israeli relations started last October? Lmao.
Ya, the surrounding Arab Nations have been attacking Israel for nearly 80 years, and they were murdering Jews for centuries before that too.
And Israel the state has been murdering Palestinians for nearly 80 years as well.
Are you comfortable with Israel killing, injuring, and destroying the homes, businesses, and communities of Gazans?
Of course I'm not but I'm also not surprised that its happening after Oct 7. I think there should be an immediate ceasefire, from both sides, and then hash out some kind of diplomatic compromise. Not up to me though
I would also like a cease fire. Or truce. An armistice or something that creates a short term and then a long term peace where the Palestinians can have the freedoms that the Israelis have. Though that may be too much to ask.
I can't explain Hamas' thinking for the actions of Oct. 7th. But I can see, if we work your analogy, that they didn't just go out to poke a bear. Rather, the bear has been menacingly hovering over Palestinians after coming into the home and swiping at them for decades. They can either die slowly doing nothing, or fight back knowing that they can be morally injured. Meanwhile, all your neighbors are saying you should let the bear live peacefully in your home. In fact, the city council made a plan for that to happen. Enen your friends are like, "The bear isn't that bad." So you fight back. And your friends aren't on team bear anymore. And some neighbors are like "WTF bear!" And none of that happens without knifing the bear.