Uncommitted voters are not apathetic. The Democratic party is
Uncommitted voters are not apathetic. The Democratic party is
Americans are recognizing we must do more for Palestine and are signaling dissatisfaction with the party, as they did in 2008
What happens in November is up to Biden – it will not be the fault of the protest voter if Trump is elected. The questions remain: does the Democratic party fear Trump as much as we do? And does it value its voters enough to shift away from an approach to the onslaught in Gaza that a majority of Democratic voters are against?
You're viewing a single thread.
I’m just tryna vote for the lesser, by far, of two evils. It’s a fucking binary system, you can stomp your feet all you want and still get a genocide and possibly much worse, or you can at least preserve hope for a better future.
Same but in the mean time I'm going to continue to donate and help push for progressives and those who keep fighting to get rid of the bullshit first past the post voting system and electoral college bullshit.
It's reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally simple:
Voting Biden in gives us time to take all this energy we're mustering up and using it to promote broader, more significant changes. We don't stop at the election and instead use the next four years to push toward a better tomorrow.
Too many people are stopping at Trump v. Biden. Too many more are stopping at Them v "The System".
Change takes time. When you vote for Biden, you vote to reset the clock, and then it's time for all of us to get to work.
Exactly. If Trump wins, he will outright BAN the Democratic Party, at worst. We will all either be Republicans, or we will be prisoners. And if that happens, the only group with the means to oppose him and the GOP Fascists is gone. And yes, the DNC absolutely has the means. They have all the tools they need. Now, I will admit that they lack the will to use those tools, but if Trump wins they'll never get the chance to use them.
Can you explain how you expect to push for a better tomorrow after Biden is re-elected?
The reason I am reluctant to vote for Biden is that he is supporting genocide. If Biden continues to give away large quantities of child-exploding bombs, and he is still rewarded with reelection, then what leverage will the anti-genocide movement have left?
It seems like if Biden can ignore the anti-genocide movement and still win, then we can expect Biden to keep ignoring for 4 more years.
Tell me: What do you expect Trump to do?
Tell me: What do you expect democrats to do when they can just point to the next election and claim that democrats are owed votes for not being the other guy? Do you honestly think democrats will listen to voters? They're already not listening when the vote matters most.
Make the next four years matter so they can't do that.
I wish the democrats would make the four years matter. Somehow obama made little difference in eight years while trump drove us to the edge of armageddon in only four. So far biden doesn't inspire much confidence.
The Right tends to come together against something. The rest of us banter and point fingers at one another. Bluntly speaking, I'm disappointed with the majority of people who aren't on the right. We quite literally need to shut up, stop arguing constantly, and work together, while collectively standing in voice and action.
Good luck. The Left has been made up of everyone who couldn't form their own parties because they lacked the resources, and so the Democratic Party became the "Big Tent" Party. And so, the Left has become beset by decades of infighting and a mountain of conflicting interests. Getting everyone to unite is hard. If a Democratic candidate at any level takes a stance that one or more factions disagree with, on any issue, it breaks the coalition.
I expect Trump to continue being a boogeyman so people like you can keep saying this instead of working for any real change that makes people's lives better. 'Just push Biden left' turned into 'Well you have no other choice' real quick.
You don't think Trump is harmful?
Where did I say that? Putins using Ukrainian Nazis as his boogeyman, do you think that implies Nazis aren't harmful too? Bibi is using Hamas as his, same question.
Ok so you've admitted you think trump is worse and you only have 2 choices cuz fptp voting.
I expect Trump to do horrible things. I expect Trump to be worse than Biden.
What does that have to do with my questions?
It has everything to do with your question. Biden has already proven he is willing to roll over on many issues. Biden has gotten a lot done these last four years, far more than most of us expected. Meanwhile, and I am NOT downplaying the severity of the genocide, people like you are using that in exactly the same way you accuse people like me of using Trump. Thing is your reluctance to help Biden get into office, and acknowledgement of the likely atrocities Trump would attempt, does you no favors. You can't see past your own anger to the bigger picture, and it's a damn shame. Because where Biden buys us time to continue coming together and push for change, Trump will attempt to lock us, and the very many minorities, LGPTQ+ communities, and any person not white and certainly anyone who stands against him, possibly and quite literally behind bars. He is so damned bad that the ENTIRE WORLD was pushing back against his Presidency and are terrified of him winning again. Except Russia.
Either we step the fuck up and stop being bitches and work together for a change over the next few years, or all this shit, every single part of it, will occur again in 2028. Including, as happens nearly every god damn fucking time, a serious situation that splits our attention and our support while the Right looks on and smirks. Every. Time. And we keep falling for it because we care.
I'm not angry, I was asking an honest question that no one has answered yet: how?
You say you take the genocide seriously, and you say electing Biden is buying us time to push for change, so answer my question then:
How will we effectively push the Biden administration to change Gaza policy after he is re-elected?
Not just Gaza. You're stuck. Broader change. Biden is already showing he is willing to make changes and roll over on many issues. So we do what has always worked: We stand as a united voice. We come together to vote in more progressive local and State representatives while also collectively looking Biden in the eye and saying what we want.
None of this "If you won't then I won't." bullshit. Literally one issue at a time.
The reason I'm angry is because this is actually incredibly simple. We live in an age where we can organize so god. damned. easily. Yet we keep finding ourselves at each other's throats. Gaza IS a situation that is causing us to split. Yet not reelecting Biden is the wrong way to go right now because we don't have a reasonable alternative. Not this time. This time it is truly binary.
So take that energy and carry it past the election and into further elections and further actions. Elevate our voice. We can still make that difference, though I feel we are slowly running out of time courtesy of the Republican party's actions, and our own party's inability to come to consensus. Both inside and outside the Chamber. Say what you will about Republicans: When it comes time to act, they often do so single-mindedly, even if it hurts them too.
The Gaza liberation movement is collectively looking Biden in the eye and saying what we want. We are standing with a united voice. You should join us instead of creating all this needless division and conflict.
Then I implore you: Push the movement to change course once the situation in Gaza is taken care of. Don't let it dissolve. Restructure to focus on other issues here at home. That's literally all I have sought for years. To build a movement in the U.S. that seeks to push for positive change through a collective, unified, voice. One where everybody on the same side comes on board. Where we do not turn others away out of spite or malice and instead teach patience to change minds.
After Gaza. After we get Biden in. Just continue that energy and don't break apart in apathy and individual discourse once again.
Gaza getting "taken care of" means them getting wiped out to Biden and most democrats. He had made it abundantly clear he will not budge on this issue, there is nothing that can stop the flow of weapons into Israel, and that he is straight up ignoring the protestors because "disorder isn't the answer" (besides the disorder Israel is generating in Gaza ofc). What is your solution to this? Just ignore it and fall in line? Biden will never unaffix his lips from bibi's asshole, so what are we supposed to do other than accept the genocide and accept Biden helping the IDF wipe Gaza off the map? How about you pressure biden to stop committing genocide instead of telling people with empathy to shut up and take it?
Right now you're acting contrary to what your last sentence implies you should be doing.
You're detracting from Biden when you should be falling in line.
Get a clue people. If you care about Palestine then Biden is literally your only option.
Because that is literally the entire campaign for the DNC: "but what about Trump!".
They love Trump because he's the ultimate boogeyman to strong-arm voters to fall into line.
Hope for whom? A better future for whom? If personal selfishness outweighs the value of humanity, then we’ve already lost, and the outcome of the election is irrelevant.
for whom?
The gay and trans people who won't get murdered? The women who won't die in abortive childbirth?
Are there not gay and trans people in Palestine right now? Or is it only American LGBTQIA 🏳️🌈 folks that matter?
You're arguing in bad faith. Everyone should know this guy.is a false flag right wing nutbag.
CHECK HIS POST HISTORY HE DOESNT ARGUE IN GOOD FAITH
That’s a Thought-terminating cliché.
It’s entirely possible that there are multiple points of view concerning this conflict and the upcoming election. Please, look at my post history, it might be inciteful.
Please, look at my post history, it might be inciteful.
What a Freudian slip lol
Uh oh are we throwing a tantrum bc someone doesn't agree with you? Grow up cx
Also Idk if Guy Levi has anything to do with this, it's prob best you leave him be 🌸
Haha are you ... serious? You know what Palestinians do to gay people, right? Right?
Is it worse than a genocide?
Yes.
How?
Lesser of two evils works when we're talking about blocking universal healthcare or police reform. When you use that bullshit to justify pulling the lever for genocide, you just don't care that much about genocide.
And when you use that justification to enable someone who's going to increase support of that genocide what does that make you? Sure sounds like you're supporting more genocide than a Biden voter is.
It's like people forgot how many Americans died during the height of the pandemic because T**** is a fucking idiot.
Anyone who is even remotely near the crosshairs of the Christofascists needs to pull their head out of their ass and vote Democrat this election.
The Republicunts don't care if you think "both sides are bad" if you're LGBTQ+, atheist, non-Christian, think abortion should be freely available, etc.
Ideals and principles don't stop bullets or beatings.
Hey, how about you just work with us this time and then here in four years we will pretend to care about what you wanna do.
That seems to be the Democrat playbook anymore
Run for something locally.
Do something about it.
Oh suck rocks. There's one party that does try to pass legislation that helps people, that is better for the environment, better allocations of spending priorities, and generally aren't fucking cartoon villains.
And it ain't the Republicans.
Being mad that things weren't done the way we Think They Should Be(tm) and dismissing the realization that geopolitics is an extremely complex system is childish. Throwing temper tantrums, threatening to take your toys and go home because you didn't get your way is childish.
There are many factions to appease in the US electorate, particularly on the left. And while I personally feel like Israel should have been cut off decades ago which may have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, there are a lot more who feel differently. Am I going to hold that against the group that aligns with the majority of my aspirations even if they are stymied by christofacists at every turn? FUCK NO.
If there are so many of them compared to us, then why are you worried?
My guy, do you understand how margins work?!
My guy, do you not understand that human lives are more important than anything else he can do?
He disregards that, and I’m ok with not being on team “Okay with killing children to get the other things we want.”
That is your team
Which is exactly why you shouldn't be just tuning in every 4 years. Local elections, primaries, etc. People only pay attention every 4 years. That's part of the reason why we're here.
I know the names, office locations, and names of the assistants of my congressional representatives, do you?
Sounds like you're perfectly capable of understanding how participation is beneficial. Maybe you could advocate more people participate and the resulting benefits vs cynical bullshit designed to turn people off entirely?
Tried that.
Remember, behind every cynic is a crushed optimist
Look at those goalposts fly!
There were no goalposts to move in my statement. What the hell are you talking about?
@[email protected] : that's a slippery slope moving the goal posts ad hom begging the question false equivalency fallacy.
I love when people start throwing in debate bro terms at random without expanding. It tells everything you need to know that you're talking to a 12 year old.
You're not wrong, but it beats the GOP's playbook, and it'll buy us some time to do the actual work of building a viable third party that might have a chance after 20 years of constant support from local elections on up.
Not voting sends no message other than you're fine with how things are so you can't be bothered. Threatening a comfy 2-party system with a solid alternative will make them sweat.
You're standing in a room with two levers. If you pull the left one, five people die. If you pull the right one, ten people die. If you don't pull one, it's random, either five or ten people die.
So if you choose not to pull, and ten people die, would you feel guilty for the five additional people? You could have prevented their deaths.
Ooh, I love thought experiments! You're in an auditorium. There are three stages. On one stage, a man is guilotining one child every ten minutes. He cries into his handkerchief. On another stage, a man is gleefully guilotining one child every ten minutes and periodically kicking a dog. Both men get loud applause from different sides of the auditorium. On the third stage, almost completely unnoticed by the crowd, Jill Stein juggles bowling pins while tossing candy to kids. A vote will be taken to see who stays on stage.
The train is barreling down a track with five people tied to the rails. It crushes them. You hear the screams and watch the blood spurt and then dribble. Ahead are another group of five people on the rails. You can let the train continue on its murderous path, throw a switch that will shift it onto a different track but cause another train to run over the people, or you can go call 911 because the people are going to be crushed no matter what.
You're really saying Trump won't (as he has very specifically said he want to) help Israel kill even more people?
Or hell, even kill Americans? He's floated that idea multiple times too.
You're using a lot of words to cover up your central premise: when it comes to death, Biden and Trump are equally bad.
Which is how I know you're a fucking shill.