Self report: AITPTB for banning someone for report abuse?
Self report: AITPTB for banning someone for report abuse?
So, I saw a report from one of my users. They reported:
https://ponder.cat/post/1594852/1813842
For the reason:
Unreasonable fighting with everyone in every simple post
I think that's ridiculous, so I talked with them about it. Posting private communications is frowned upon I guess, but long story short, they weren't receptive. I've decided to ban the account.
IMO the general culture on Lemmy is that users are entitled to their free account and everyone needs to be careful and circumspect about limiting that entitlement in any way, but I don't see it that way. I don't think it's a requirement for me to provide hosting space for anyone who wants to use my stuff as a jumping-off point for abuse of Lemmy's systems, and isn't apologetic or receptive when I talk with them about not doing that. The fact that it's in service of harassing FlyingSquid in particular is just icing on the cake, since my perception is that people like to harass him apparently for no legitimate reason at all (with this as an example).
AITA?
Yeah. FS really seems to take a lot of heat. I think it’s because people have come to know that he will always defend himself. And when they repeatedly antagonize him- it always seems it’s for their entertainment.
PTB majorly. You don't want to ban people for reports unless they're spamming false reports.
Otherwise you discourage reporting. Think of it this way, would you rather have them just not report things because you ban them or threaten to ban them for things you don't think are personally actionable.
It's a fair point. I talked more about it here:
https://ponder.cat/post/1596872/1816086
Basically, my point is, they knew exactly who FlyingSquid was and were familiar with Lemmy already from some other accounts, and on their first day, started reporting comments of his without claiming that anything was wrong with them, saying that just because of who he is, any comment of his deserves to be reported.
I can understand the point of view that a permaban for that behavior is too much. As a general rule, I actually agree 100%. But to me looking at the context, their other comments, and especially how they reacted when I asked them not to do that, it was time for them to go.
Edit: Also... I do want to apologize a bit for this sequence of events (Please understand that I am listening and this whole conversation was valuable for me to understand and check myself on it):
- Me: AITPTB?
- People: FUCK YES
- Me: Well, if you saw the DMs I won't show you, you'd understand. I'm still right.
- Me: AITPTB?
- People: FUCK YES
- Me: Well, if you saw the DMs I won't show you, you'd understand. I'm still right.
If you're going to ask here then say "Umm achkually I'm not a PTB" what ws the point of making this thread? Just hoping to take away from the person who was doing the reporting so they wouldn't ask if you're a PTB? If that was it then it backfired because people indeed do think it's wrong to ban people for and to discourage reporting.
You are not the asshole. Your logic is reasonable and self consistent.
since my perception is that people like to harass him apparently for no legitimate reason at all
I still have them labeled as an abusive mod for baiting someone into a debate then banning them from the community for engaging in that debate. So I think this user does look for fights, to be fair.
I still have them labeled as an abusive mod for baiting someone into a debate then banning them from the community for engaging in that debate.
When did this happen? I feel like they get sucked into long pointless debates the same as some people on Lemmy, but I feel like it's kind of mutual combat.
I know everyone brings up that one example from months ago when FS arguably threatened to take some kind of unspecified action against someone they were mid-argument with, but did they actually ban someone in that scenario? I have them pegged as more of just an argument junkie than any kind of PTB about it. Maybe I have missed / forgotten about some actual ban they handed out of course.
argument junkie
Thats enough to see why they are polarizing across lots of people.
Here is the exact instance when I flipped the bit on them
I believe the mod in question is an abusive mod: I’ve seen them debate with someone in a conversation, bait them into sparring, then when the person responds, ban them for breaking the rules. That alone is moderator abuse, it’s not being objective, and an environment where the moderator tries to create ban incidents isn’t a friendly one to be in. For this reason I blocked every community where they are a moderator.
PTB, idk why you would ban someone for this
People are saying that a mod shouldn't show DM's. Why? It says all over the place that they're not private.
It would actually be a great community sharing the really bad ones. They're pretty funny sometimes. It might make people want to be on that wall for having the best ones though. Maybe not.
I think it is because the sub is aimed at people who are sometimes revisionist about how they present the story, and there's no way to verify that the DM is real or is the whole story. PTB definitely happens but also, the people who got sanctioned by the mods often got sanctioned because they're being unreasonable, and sometimes they continue being unreasonable while they're arguing their case here.
I think "We have no way to verify what was in any DMs, so let's go only off the public record" is more solid ground to stand on to keep it all within a nice verifiable landscape.
That makes sense. I misunderstood and thought they meant that you shouldn't post the DM's ever.
We've reached the next level peeps. Mods pre-emptively opening YPTB posts about their own actions! 😈
Don't know that I would've banned someone for a single report, even if it was nonsensical. Sometimes, people have a bad day, and aren't thinking clearly.
Generally I'm quick with the banhammer about positions (ie genocide deniers o u t), but reluctant about attitudes. As someone who is miserable and tetchy myself, I know all about what it's like to snap - even at someone I don't like - and overstep the boundaries of good taste, norms, or constructive participation in a community.
BPR, I guess? I probably would've told them to fuck off, but a ban might've been an overreaction.
At the same time, operating on your gut to keep a place clean is often necessary to maintain your sanity. There are only so many hours in the day, and only so much energy you can spend reasoning or enduring people.
I dunno, man.
Yeah, I can see that. That's why I posted here.
Everyone draws their lines in slightly different places. I'm actually probably a lot more tolerant than most about "banned" points of view, or someone just being abrasive one day, since I do the same (on both counts). As long as at the end of the day they're open for some form of open communication about it. Explicitly rejecting the social contract or using Lemmy's buttons in a way they're not designed for, taking up moderators' time for frivolous stuff and refusing to stop when asked, explicitly rejecting the idea of backing up your reason for attacking someone when asked, I have a lot shorter fuse for.
I wouldn't have banned if they were at all receptive to the DM conversation about it, but as it is, I just didn't think I was doing anybody including them any favors by saying "Oh okay, keep doing what you're doing, you are welcome to a place on this network after a short time-out."
It sounds like most of the conversation we cannot see here, so we're only seeing your side here. Therefore take what I say with that grain of salt that we cannot evaluate what we do not see.
I would have offered them a warning first. Which, in the DMs, you did?
At that point, don't worry about it. I will bend over backwards to explain something to someone who's honestly trying, but if you are correct that they are not merely ignorant but rather obstinate, then I think it was the right call.
The fact that you are willing to be so transparent (with your own side of the conversation at least, which is all that you "own" so please don't think I'm mocking you here, I respect that) and also to receive correction yourself seals the deal, imho. You thereby protect people from abuse and in turn allow freedom to have discussions when toxic people are kept out of the room - it's like trying to discuss something when toddlers are screaming underfoot, it just isn't going to happen, yet it requires effort to carve out those spaces to remain welcoming to have discussions.
The rest is just details: FlyingSquid really can be quite abusive himself at times, though this may not have been one of them, and he is often quite fun to talk to (unless he gets triggered), plus a single report is not itself abuse, etc. I mentioned more in a response to Blaze.
After learning about everything that happened here, personally I would feel more rather than less comfortable making a post or even account on ponder.cat, if that phrasing helps explain what I mean. By keeping toxic people out, you allow space for people to post who otherwise would hesitate to, for fear of the toxicity that so very often results from doing so.
One report is not report abuse. And I do often see FS arguing up and down a thread about nothing at all, so the report isn't off base either. If you think FS's behavior is inappropriate, you can remove the comments or ban him. If you think it's appropriate, then you can explain that to the user who reported it. You're not required to continue that thread, though.
If they continue reporting material that has been identified to them as non-rulebreaking, then that is report abuse and merits a ban.
So, YTPTB I guess?
The report on that comment was totally off base. It wasn't in any way an argumentative comment. It was reporting a totally innocuous comment because "every" comment by FS is allegedly combative. And, they refused when I asked for some examples of this "every" behavior by FS.
So they knew it was non rulebreaking and reported it anyway. And then, I did explain that to them as you described, and they weren't into hearing the explanation. Okay, sounds good, guess who else doesn't have to care what you think, if we're doing not-listening-to-each-other? This guy.
I would have just stopped responding after explaining why it wasn't rulebreaking. Like I said, one instance isn't abuse, continued behavior is.
I think that's ridiculous, so I talked with them about it.
Well, there's your problem. One silly report? Reject, don't think about it again unless the reporting user gets increasingly uppity all on their own. You don't have to engage with everything (and I am fully aware of the irony of my saying that).
Now, what the user said after that in your private communications may have warranted a "GTFO," but you're right to not publish that. It'll have to be your judgment call there.
I want so badly to post the content of the DM conversation lol
You are correct that the content of the conversation was what tipped the scales in favor of a ban.
I often agree with your positions on various things, Phil, at least to the extent that it seems that we're operating from a similar point of reference. That said, and in light of the nature of the private communications remaining private (as it should), there's only one conclusion that seems fitting.
PTB.
One instance of anything hardly seems like grounds for a ban. Repeat behavior certainly could justify that action, but in the absence of any pattern it seems like an overreach. There might well be further justification for a ban based on the direct messages; but, as you're submitting your own action for analysis, the only fair way to evaluate is on the grounds of what we are directly privy to. Anything else has to be viewed as simply your biased interpretation of the private conversation.
In the circumstance you describe the onus on the user is not to be "receptive or apologetic" to you in the private conversation, only to correct their usage of the report system. As presented, it reads as if they were banned because they did not show adequate respect for your authority, which is clear PTBehavior. Further, you attempt to bolster your point by painting Squid, a user who loves to try to win bad-take arguments by referring to their own mod status in other communities (essentially a PTB themselves), as undeserving of ire despite an extensive history of spinning out, losing the thread, and generally being a dick when it happens. Carrying water for someone who comes across as power-trippy does little to shift perception of your own actions away from that mark.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
The POV that banning for one report is a big overreach makes perfect sense to me. I talked about it a little bit below, you can search for "clear pattern" to see.
It wasn't that they were unapologetic. I've actually had people have hostile disagreements with me in communities I moderate, and it didn't even occur to me until later that I had some kind of power not to "get talked to that way" or disrespected or w/e. That kind of thing doesn't bother me except very occasionally. The issue was that this person refused to back up their reasons for wanting mod action against FS, and rejected my request to not use the report function that way. I do feel like someone needs to be receptive to someone asking them "I consider this against the rules, please don't do it on my server." Of course I was less polite than that. Also, maybe I am biased because of course my rules make perfect sense but someone else's might not, if I'm on their server and the roles are reversed. That's just how I see it though.
This whole thing of being officially a person with authoritah is new to me, hence posting here to ask about it. I take seriously the discussion about it, even if I might not agree with individual POVs or sound like I'm rejecting anyone who's trying to tell me I did wrong.
Further, you attempt to bolster your point by painting Squid, a user who loves to try to win bad-take arguments by referring to their own mod status in other communities (essentially a PTB themselves)
Maybe. In the little bit I've observed about FlyingSquid, it looks like they tend to get tangled up in long intense arguments which maybe they don't need to get tangled up in. That's sure not ideal, but it doesn't make them a bad person or a power-tripper. I think there was one time several months ago when they noted to someone they were in a long argument with that the person had a habit of breaking the community rules in some other posts, also, and now everyone keeps referring back to that one time as an example of how FS is terrible and threatened to ban the person just because they were disagreeing.
I've just noticed that there are all these disparate attempts to get FS banned, removed from mod status, and similar things, and when I looked into the "why" of them they tended to boil down to not that much of consequence. So I have sort of a hair trigger now for something along the lines of "okay THIS comment was perfectly fine but we all KNOW that this person is bad, because they are, and anything they say needs a moderator to step in and remove it," which to me is harassment unless the person's done something absolutely truly reprehensible. If someone is being awful all the time, just report the awful comments, they should be pretty easy to find.
So people who can perform "apologetic" are better behaved in future than those who aren't good at that performance?
I won't analyze this case, but: Abusing the report button is an issue. This forces you to do work to check it, clear it and so on. I can handle the reports in my communities (there are a few), but if I would be getting hundreds of reports every week, I would burn out quickly. People like to shit on mods, but most people don't know how many batshit insane people there are on the internet and that the best way to have a nice community is to keep them away.
Someone reporting something, you disagreeing with it being a reportable offense, and the user getting banned for it... a single mistake isn't abuse. If you had explained that doing it again would lead to a ban, and then they did, sure.
There's literally no way to take this other than PTB. Unless he threatened you in the DM, you're absolutely the one wrong here.
There's not an abbreviation for this in the community rules.
It isn't power tripping fully because the decision was made based on more than a single factor, and they are indeed reasonable rules.
But it is a tad much for a permaban on the first go on your instance. While I agree there are some people that do not give a fuck and stir shit everywhere they go, and I agree that it seems you were dealing with one, a temp ban is the go-to.
Since you can't/won't share private communications (and good on you for that), we can only go with what's available, and a permaban is too far based on only that for a first offense.
If their responses in private were bad enough, that's a judgement call, and it might change the matter. Since you don't have a history of wielding the hammer heavily, despite having every right to do so on own instance, I give you the benefit of the doubt as well. A single action does not a power tripper make. It's about patterns of behavior.
So, the specific action was low grade power tripping, but you aren't a power tripper.
Now regardless of that, I fully support preemptive bans as a valid tool. Someone has a history of abuse on other instances and communities, and starts the same behavior on another one, it is a valid option. It is, however not an opinion that is held by a majority, and I tend to give my opinion about that less weight here lately. I accept that a lot of people consider that a power trip most of the time. But I think preventing a pattern from forming in the first place is a good thing when done with care.
PTB
I don't get the ban over one report. Feels Gestapo.
Permaban should be reserved for bots and threat actors IMHO
In this case, you were not the target of the reports, it was the community mods I guess?
But if the purposes of the account was trolling and even stalking of a single other account, that would rise to instance admin jurisdiction?
Edit: this is getting so confusing. Here looks to be the banned account. The instance sidebar rules state:
All are welcome to this instance. Please no illegal content, no personal attacks, no misinformation, no bigotry. Other than that, go nuts. Be productive.
Emphasis mine. Where it gets really odd is that the post was to [email protected], and the target account likewise on Lemmy.world, and filing a report is not the same as a "personal attack". So yeah I see what you mean now. The only reason this report ended up visible was bc it was originally posted by Cat on ponder.cat. However, if I think about how people from Hexbear use Lemmy.ml alt accounts (cough Cowbee cough) to attempt to escape from moderation of posts on other instances, I can see the appeal of an instance admin getting involved.
The banned account makes personal attacks against people all the time - though here, in this case, filing a single report was not itself an "attack".
Essentially the person was banned for "general vibes" not matching the instance rules, though only noticed in the first place by filing this report.
Precisely. I know it's a lot to ask since everyone's volunteers, but I wish more instance admins would do something to address the issue when their users are openly being a pain in the ass. It's not reasonable to ask every mod to click away an unlimited number of frivolous reports, every user to block every unapologetic asshole, every mod to individually figure out the complete list of who the fight-pickers are, and so on.
Good point
I would call some ways of requesting sanctions against another user an “attack”. You can’t get all insistent with the staff at the bar, that someone needs to be kicked out, and then get upset when you get kicked out because that’s messed up man.
You’re completely right that it was more about vibes than about violating a specific set of rules, but I also would consider accusing everything someone says of needing to be removed from the conversation to be a personal attack. It would be different if they were saying the reported comment, itself, was in any way objectionable.
Correct. I have nothing to do with the community, or the person being reported or the people handling the reports. I just saw the report because it originated from my instance.
Is it a coincidence your username acronym is PTB? because I don't think this comm has been around as long as that username.
Sometimes, the universe just needs to provide its input on some kind of situation, and there's not going to be a thing that you or I or anybody can do to stop it from voicing its opinion.
If they knew that the comment did not break rules but reported it anyway, they were abusing the report function. A ban is arguably too harsh of a punishment, specially since it's a single event.
So I guess BPR? Potentially TDI (They Deserved It) depending on the DM interaction; if you included some warning and they kept insisting, certainly TDI.
I understand abuse of reporting to apply for repeated frivolous reporting, sending spam, or similar.
This report could simply be ignored until something else happens.
A user reporting something doesn’t know how the mods decide. Mods will always receive reports, where they don’t think taking action is necessary.
Think what‘s your definition of abuse of report button?
So: PTB
Think what‘s your definition of abuse of report button?
I probably have a little different view of the social contract and responsibility of communication than other people. Again, not trying to repost someone's private communication, but when I asked them more or less "What's the justification for this report?" they weren't open to trying to justify it, just told me to do my own research. More or less. To me, probably more than other people, that's a huge sin. You need to have reasons for what you say, you need to be open to defending it if someone semi-politely asks you to, especially when your statement is calling for sanctions from authority or anything like that. It's part of being responsible with your communication and building a good community to be a part of.
Like I said, it helps that my perception is that there is "repeated" harassment of FlyingSquid in various forms. It means that any single report, even if it comes from an account that hasn't been doing any of it, forms part of a pattern of spam like you're talking about. But, I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt, and talk to the person and see if they were open to saying "That's a fair thing to ask me, I take it seriously, here is my defense of what I did / what I said." Again that's just my view on integrity of communication. I might disagree or agree with the defense, and either one is mostly fine, but if someone's like "it's not my responsibility, I just spew statements into the world and it's your problem to figure out if they are bullshit or not, without my help," they instantly go to the bottom of my shit-list. And, if they're already on thin ice because we're having the conversation because they're using my volunteer hardware to violate Lemmy's norms and that's why we're having the conversation in the first place...
when I asked them more or less “What’s the justification for this report?” they weren’t open to trying to justify it, just told me to do my own research. More or less.
flat-out, I tell people not to dm me, even mods who have a problem with my reports. i do make an exception for my admins, but that's it.
when I asked them more or less "What's the justification for this report?" they weren't open to trying to justify it
I would have simply dropped the matter at that point and ended the conversation.
A short ban as a warning for wasting time is okay as well, I guess.
The issue here is the person is wasting your time.
Like I said, it helps that my perception is that there is "repeated" harassment of FlyingSquid in various forms. It means that any single report, even if it comes from an account that hasn't been doing any of it, forms part of a pattern of spam like you're talking about.
So, in your view, FlyingSquid is a superior class of user that cannot be interacted with negatively without being banned for it? I was lightly on the PTB side before, but I guess you're just straight up authoritarian and favoring specific users.
Having read through some of the comments that the user you banned posted lately, yeah I don’t blame you. Their replies are often needlessly rude and holier than thou, especially when replying to squid.
Yeah, sounds like you're the bastard.
people like to harass him apparently for no legitimate reason at all
I feel like dude comments ALOT and, as a result, he sometimes hits the wrong note. Personally I get irate sometimes but more often I upvote. They're not like abusive or bannable IMO.
Right... Got into a few sword fights with squid...
Part of the game, he is entitled to express himself as much as people are entitled to challenge him on his hot takes.
That's how we level up around here IMHO
Seriously. I also get bent out of shape about some types of argumentation and Lemmy posting, probably more than I should. But I don't at all understand this mentality "If someone starts ARGUING with me and being MEAN with their typing I will have a total ANXIETY CRISIS and it is Lemmy's job to stop that from HAPPENING at all costs."
I agree that FlyingSquid sometimes gets wrapped up in extensive arguments that are, arguably, a waste of all participants' time. I strongly disagree that it's any kind of crisis, or that "Something must be done!" when that happens.