Internal Monologue and Visualization?
Internal Monologue and Visualization?
Hey all,
Just curious about something. I'm in my 30s and it took me until my early to mid 20s to realize that the cartoon thought bubbles or echoy voiceover thinking in shows and movies was kind of a real thing.
I almost never can visualize, and when I do it's not something I can control. I can't just summon the image of an apple in my head, but apparently everyone else around me can. Even when I can visualize, it's like a thin mist that's hard to pinpoint details and easily blown away.
Similarly, I almost never have an internal monologue. The times I do are short-lived and conversational, like "Wow, you should really wake up, it's past noon". or something.
However, I'm pretty good at playing songs in my head and quietly jamming out to sounds that don't exist.
When I have a puzzle or something I need to think about, my subconscious handles it and just tells me the answer most of the time, without me having to do anything but look at the problem and wait. That's super helpful for most day-to-day stuff, and people think I'm smart. But it means I'm terrible at doing math in my head, and can't think through any kind of complicated issue in my head.
It also doesn't help that my short term and long term memory are both terrible. Any memories older than a couple of weeks are just gone, or they are emotionless fuzzy snapshots with no before or after. If I know something, it comes to mind without effort. If I don't know something, it's probably just gone forever unless I have some kind of visual reminder and get lucky.
Basically, I can't do anything in my head. I have to write it down, or have some other way to externalize the information in order to go over it. This make people think I'm stupid.
Add in the classic "bad at social-anything" and every interaction feels like a disaster.
And don't get me started on how often I forget what I'm doing or how badly I fail to multitask. Makes finding a job I can live on very hard, and the one time I had a decent job, I felt like I constantly had to prove myself. I was always making seemingly basic mistakes and letting everyone down.
Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I wanted to give kind of an overview of how my head works. I was wondering what kinds of brains everyone else is dealing with.
Does anyone else deal with things like visualization, or poor memory, or anything like that? How do you cope with the day-to-day?
The lack of a visual imagination that you can control is called aphantasia.
I wish my internal monologue would shut the fuck up. It's almost always rehearsing arguments. Like for a whole day all I'll think about is why someone I spoke to in a forum 20 years ago was wrong. I listen to podcasts or loud music to get a break from hearing my thoughts.
I constantly have several streams going at the same time that I cannot control. One is like you said: rehearsing arguments. Another is reviewing recent social interactions trying to make sense of them because, to me, NT and autistic culture are quite different. So, I'm always trying to figure out what an NT meant by something they did and what an NT could presume I meant by something I did. The next stream is a song or drum beat. I am 24/7 playing a song or drum beat in my head. Right now, it's Pretty Young Thing by MJ. The final and faintest stream is my bodily needs such as hunger, thirst, tired, having to go to the bathroom, etc. This last one can start demanding more attention and disrupting the others if the need is considerable enough. For example, I'm pretty dumb after eating a large meal because the bloating just takes up too much of my attention.
Music is my escape as well. I consider myself an audiophile and listen to music very technically as it's one of the only things which distracts my inner monologue. Gives me a chance to visualize the sound stage and appreciate every little production decision. Also, great username! Glassware was one I used for the longest time.
Man, you're describing me. I don't have a lot to offer other than to say you're not alone.
My memory is garbage, luckily I'm in software development, so I can live and die by search engines, digital notes, and calendar notifications.
I definitely have to "sketch" things out or pseudo-code ideas or do something to get it "in front" of me so I can organize it. I really can't do it mentally.
My wife is befuddled by my inability to visualize. She asks me to describe people I've just met and the best I can do is, "couple arms, a couple legs, some fingers..."
Anyway...happy to answer other questions if needed, but like I said, you're not alone.
I was having a networking issue, and found a decent solution on stackoverflow. After fixing my problem, I went back to say thanks, and added a couple other tidbits I found. Only after that I realized the original solution was also mine, posted a couple years earlier.
Oh man, my last job was in IT and I've been trying to get back into it. I can throw together a decent script with some Google-fu, but anything longer than a hundred lines and I start to forget how everything interconnects and what supposed to be doing what. I keep having to relearn things that I haven't used in a couple of weeks. How do you handle the complex nature of the beast? I just worked as a generalist, so luckily I didn't need to do super complex tasks.
Depending on the code, I have a hard time following things longer than a couple hundred lines. I didn't know if that's typical, though spaghetti code is certainly common. I do push harder than many people to factor out helpers, but ultimately it leads to cleaner, more testable code.
I suppose I'm on the opposite side of visualization spectrum. I can easily conjure images so realistic and detailed that they pass for the real thing. I can also add texture, smells, temperature, sound, etc. but I can't fake weight or pure white color which for some reason always turns out somewhat grey or beige.
I don't think much in words however, most of my thoughts are in images and sensations. Which does make verbal communication somewhat challenging at times.
Sometimes the realism of visualization worries me somewhat. Many mental processes have a tendency to get a bit out of conscious control, and it would be quite troublesome to no longer know which of the things I see are actually real. On the plus side, I can visualize paintings on my walls, without actually buying any! I like having no decorations in my home, which seems to confuse people. Perhaps I should start comparing it to a blank canvas...
That's amazing!
I can visualize whenever I want, but I have the same fuzziness issue you describe. It's like quantum mechanics, a detail only resolves when I specifically measure it, and it's in flux as I interrogate other details. My dreams are also like this, and all my senses are poor and low resolution, yet I don't notice until I've awoken.
If I needed to somewhat accurately visualize something, I'd remember details of it in like a list form and reconstruct an image following that. Usually I don't have enough details memorized/given and I have to much freedom in the recreation, leading to inaccuracies. At least I've known for a while that my "memory" is actually reconstruction and so I can't trust it.
I can remember 100 digits of pi, but I can't remember my family's birthdays/anniversaries/whatever and it takes me a moment to remember my own! A calendar is a necessity for me.
Interestingly, I almost always monologue, even now I'm reading this out as I type! If I skim information faster than I can form words, I notice the monologue gives up, but I also am less likely to remember the information or form connections with it. It's a strange feeling knowing that I'm almost listening to the language of pure information whenever my monologue stops, although the information is usually fuzzier than I would like.
When I was younger, I'd occasionally have hyper detailed dreams. Even though I think seeing the future is most likely BS, those dreams usually ended up being something that gave me massive deja vu months or years after I had them. Or rather, something would happen and I'd remember the dream, like the dream predicted the event. Wasn't even anything interesting. One was literally just standing in line for lunch, seeing the seasonal decoration that got put up, and thinking that a poster was a different color than it had been in my dream. Can't explain it, and it's probably just my bad memory mixing things up.
The reason I mention it is because I almost never dream. And even when I do, it feels shallow and empty. Like you said, poor senses and low resolution.
But that made the rare and unexpectedly rich movie-like dreams all the more striking when I woke up. Most of the time, I simply go to sleep, then wake up as if no time has passed. Kind of makes me hate sleeping, because I feel like I'm just wasting time.
That said, my sleep schedule is all screwed up to. Always has been. My body never wants to stay awake or stay asleep for the same amount of time. One day, I'll be wired for 20 hours and crash. Other days, I'll sleep for 12 hours, wake up for 8, then need to sleep again.
Sorry if that's a bit unrelated. Your sleep comment just made me think of it.
I’m curious if this visualization is like my own. I can very vividly imagine an apple but then the web of thought expands out, and I’m near simultaneously visualizing different colors, shapes, varieties, artistic representations, states of being eaten or degraded, and viewed at different angles, lighting, and settings in rapid succession, so that all the images overlap in a blur of what it is that’s meant by apple.
No, I just don't get much detail. Perhaps a related phenomenon: in dreams I really struggle to run, like I'm running through a viscous fluid. I think I just can't simulate my senses well.
I have very good imagination. I often try to use it to predict all possible situations that can occur related to problems I am trying to solve. If I don't miss some important detail - I am usually correct at preparing for situations thanks to this.
My internal monologue is constant and omnipresent, especially if I am alone. It is usually critical of everyone and everything. It can even make me laugh at horrible but grotesque situations, but it allows me to appreciate things and situations that many people consider purely bad because they can't see any depth.
I am 27, not sure if I am autistic but I can relate to a lot of people are saying in their posts/comments about that. I don't like labeling myself because too often, I see people trying to put me in the nearest stereotype known to them.
Things from your post I can relate to:
My subconscious can solve entire problems for me but I can't force it or can miss it easily. It is a subtle feeling to me. Btw. - everything is a problem or a project to me.
My memory is horrible. The only way for me to think and not forget what are my conclusions is to write down, reread, correct, reread, reorganize written text which is better than my memory. I do remember some events which made me learn something important.
Doing even 2 things at once is very frustrating to me.
I can figure out social interactions if I plan them. I am still learning and getting better at it but pain of social rejection is almost physical to me.
I have a great job now because I can do pretty much whatever I want as long as I can get it done, is text based, only mental, managers are very nice to me. My previous jobs were horrible experiences. Just mountains of misery, not only for me. The feeling of powerlessness made these even worse.
I think that's your whole post answered to.
Wow, having a constant voice complaining in your head sounds exhausting. I'd end up treating my subconsious like a whiny kid and telling it to shut up all the time if I had that.
What kind of work do you do? It sounds amazing, to be honest.
My relation with my critical side is symbiotic as long as I am not tired ( maybe kind of like dealing with annoying people IRL :D ). If I am tired I can spiral to the state of being like I would be hurt animal - not allowing anyone near me for any reason or I will bite.
With this job I am never tired, maybe because my critical self washes me in endorphins everytime I think how bad I had it at my previous jobs.
My job is maintenance/updates of corporate linux packages and some minor oddball projects. I have everything set up so I can work only with linux shell, where pretty much everything is text based :) I also need to use english daily for talking with people from around the world - this is another positive aspect. I love english, it is whole separate culture for me to learn about.
I am supposedly not earning that much when comparing to others in this career but I don't spend much on anything. If I really want something - I will make it myself. My critical side also says that I don't belong in this career since I am an electrician and I should appreciate it as long as it lasts and I am earning much more than I ever was.
What kind of work do You do? From quick look at your profile you seem to be interested in linux/programming. I am kind of newish at this IT career thing but supposedly there are many programming jobs available, are these hard to find jobs?
My brain shifted towards the end of high school. Growing up, I had an uncontrollable imagination and mental environment - it was essentially a never ending plot line consisting of characters from movies, shows, books, comics- anyone that I found interesting. It was a way to cope. My brain constantly had these characters interact and create conflicts. Their actions and dialog would sometimes spill out into the real world, and I had to remember to keep everything inside. I saw it all in my mind- it was honestly super creative. I eventually wanted it all to stop because I felt like I couldn't control it, but it took effort. I had to slowly turn the extremely detailed characters into lesser versions of themselves until they were just mental stick figures; eventually, I was able to stop the story as I got bored maintaining personalities for 2d characters.
I can still access my visual mind, with effort, but it's nothing like it was. It is now instead a constant inner monologue which converses at nothing- usually it's about topics which I might have to explain to someone later or a way to navigate my thoughts/feelings. There's never anyone talking back, just my mind talking at nothing. It can be helpful as my brain bricks during random/spontaneous conversations with people, and I can lean on rehearsed talking points/sentences.
As for memory- It's on point when something is actively in my life, but the moment that thing becomes uninteresting or I step away for a few weeks, it feels less accessible and usually makes me super anxious and avoidant. Learning about things initially is super fun, but knowing I'm missing information which I previously was very confident in is tough for me.
I seem to have a harder time than others imagining the future. Which means it's hard to prepare adequately for anything. I can imagine whole stories in my head and make myself cry when I get too involved, but I don't think the images that come with it are very detailed. I've sort of made myself stop imagining conversations with existing people, because making up an imagined version of someone inside of my head seems unfair towards the person and counterproductive for the relationship.
I'm over 40 now and my disaster/success rate in social interactions is a solid 50% - it was fairly bad during the last three years of burnout recovery, but is improving again, and I found getting more decent at it came with age and the approach of solving the problem of social interactions like I'd solve a technical problem: finding out the rules of social interaction and then just applying them. So it turns out people love to talk about themselves, so with just one small question from my side I can have others talking at me for hours, they are really happy, and I just have to nod.
Memory, ugh. Random facts yes. Names no. Schedule no. I probably remember things I've read a lot better than things I've heard, because my reading has always been good while my auditory processing is rotten to begin with even on a good day. I only figured that out this year or so, but then I just figured I was on the spectrum at 37 ... knowing what's going on is really helpful so one can look actively for hacks to have an easier life.
Any tips for a slightly younger generation struggling with some of the same things?
Not sure if my undiagnosed approach is of use. I've ended up doing pretty much whatever I liked fairly early in life. Dropped out of school by 16, lived in a community by 17, travelled Europe with a backpack by 19. It was reckless, unwise, and I wouldn't want to miss it. By 23 I was a surprised young mother in a slightly dysfuctional family. Now my kid is coming to terms with being an ND weirdo, and he at least has a terminology he can use.
Ultimately this apparent randomness of direction in my life is about my social skills being non-existent when younger (drifting along, accepting all sorts of people, being easily groomed ...), and my sensory needs being what they are, namely I like it silent. So I moved out of the city to the countryside with 17, and later twice to some even more remote places, each time finding a slightly better natural and social environment for figuring myself out, and slowly learning how to function on my own terms. Because I was navigating blind for most of the way it took me all the 44 years of my life so far, but I'd say I'm fairly content with where I am, and obviously continue learning how to function in public and how in private, and how to make sure I have enough quiet time.
I'd just have taken a systematic approach earlier had I known that my 'weirdness' is just a differently wired brain. To a point, one can adapt one's life to one's brain wirings. To a point, one can learn to create different brain wirings. Both methods have their limits.
...and people think I'm smart.
This make people think I'm stupid.
Edit: I hope this doesn't come across as me making fun. Everyone's autism is different, and I regret yours comes with memory, visualization, and thought processing difficulties. You had just mentioned having only recently realized the meaning behind cartoon thought bubbles, and that was the thought bubble coming out of my head when reading your post. 😊
I wish I could help, but my autism doesn't come with those particular problems. Have you receive an ASD diagnosis? Read any books on various function coping methods for autistic people?
I laughed out loud. Saving that pic.
But yeah, I didn't realize for the longest time that most people can see things in their minds at will. I never got an official diagnosis, but I tick damn near every box, and literally every person I've mentioned probably being autistic to has said something like "Oh, that makes sense!" I'm actually talking to a professional this weekend to see what she thinks.
No books though, sorry.
Samesies with talking with other people. At age 39, after realizing I ticked all the boxes, I told my coworkers I thought I might be autistic; they looked at each other and then at me with confused looks on their faces. "You mean you didn't already know?!" I was like what, you did??? Then told my mom I thought I might be, and she said "...yeah...your dad and I always wondered if you might be." (!) Finally got diagnosed lasτ summer, and it is honestly a relief knowing for sure that I am not just plain awkward, that there is actually a reason behind it.
I can relate to some of what you're describing. A lot of things that I know or solve just happen. I make absolutely no effort and it happens almost instantaneously. It's extremely fast. However, if I can't get it that way, I typically have to externalize the whole process, either by writing it down, talking to someone or myself, or acting it out. But, once I practice the information to the point that "feel it", it turns into that super fast automatic process. People will often say that I'm smart. Even just this week, someone called me a genius. Really, I think I'm pretty dumb. I just have this ability to practice/engage in something long enough that it becomes automatic knowledge that I feel.
Exactly! It's nice to have my subconscious be so helpful, but trying to think through something without putting it in front of me in some way is damn near impossible. And if someone interrupts me while I'm trying to think, then POOF! It's all gone.
I feel like an idiot, but other people assume I must be smart because I'm decent with problem solving. I'm really not smart. I'm probably just average, but slightly more self aware of how my own mind works.
It's such a weird position to be in, right?
I forget if I put this in the original post, and I'm too lazy to check. But do you have trouble with your memory too? Like, I'm okay with recent bullet-point facts about an event, but couldn't describe what I did yesterday in any real detail.
I can tell you that I ate food in the kitchen and enjoyed it, but I can't describe the experience of it very well, if at all. In a few days, I may even forget what the food I ate was. It's already slipping. I know facts like it was hot and had cheese, I stood over the counter and had Dr. Pepper, but I couldn't paint a picture for you. I couldn't describe the experience of it very well, because I'd have to make assumptions and try to recreate what it must have been like.
It sucks because that means I'm always recreating the event in mind head in order to try and remember it better, but without the aid of visualization. And apparently that seems a lot like I'm making things up and lying all the time. It sucks so much. And if I tell someone I don't remember something well enough to talk about it, they also assuming I'm lying. "It was just last week, how do you not remember?"
The more stressed I am, the worse my memory for that time is. And no matter what I do, I'm always the weird suspicious person.
It's exhausting.
