You're viewing a single thread.
I'm not American, but tariffs to fix import issues is pretty stupid.
This is the capitalist dream, export all the production of the goods you use daily to third world countries, who will have shit labor practices like the US used to have when slavery was a thing (and bluntly, for quite a while afterwards), so that the boots-on-the-ground laborers that produce everything are either treated like slaves or literally are slaves, then import the raw material to be manufactured into whatever you're selling in the US, so you can slap a "made in the USA" sticker on your shit to enhance sales and charge more. Meanwhile "made in the USA" doesn't and shouldn't imply that there's no imported goods going into the manufacturing process to make that thing, just that you took raw materials (from wherever) and made this thing in the USA.
Tariffs unduly harm end consumers, pretty much everything we buy and own is, or has components that are, imported shit.
Most microchips, a large amount of the food we eat, most electronics, pretty much everything you'll find at a dollar general, etc (the list is very very long)... all imported in whole or in part.
Hell, there was a time that it was more economical to have your raw materials, even if they're mined/harvested/produced in the USA, shipped overseas for assembly by slave labor, then shipped back for sale to the US public, than to have it assembled inside the US. Much of that is still true. The US neither has the manufacturing capacity, nor the desire to build their own shit. The only time that's not the economical option is for large cost (and scale, either in size or money) items, like housing or vehicles. Assembly generally happens in the country/landmass where the vehicle will be sold and used. Even a company like Toyota, a Japanese brand, will have assembly plants in the USA for cars sold in the USA, because that's cheaper than importing hundreds of vehicles. For everything else, it's generally cheaper to assemble it outside of the country and import the final product.
You think process are high now? Wait until the tariff wars really kick off.
No company is going to accept the costs of tariffs and be okay with that eating their profits, they're passing that cost into consumers, because we're the saps that are still going to buy it.
When the tariffs come down, and they will eventually, prices will drop, but not to where they were from before the tariffs. Companies will continue to post record profits, justifying not giving raises because tariffs, and wages will remain stagnant. We'll earn less, while they rob is for more than they already do.
The worst part is that when the tariffs are lifted, we'll thank them for lowering the prices by buying more of their shit. We'll be grateful for the opportunity to pay even more into their profit margins.
Congratulations, you're experiencing late stage capitalism. The system is working as intended. You are poor, you remain poor, barely able to scratch out a living, while your owners profit more and more off of your hard work, and you get to thank them for that opportunity.
I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
The worst part is that when the tariffs are lifted, we’ll thank them for lowering the prices by buying more of their shit. We’ll be grateful for the opportunity to pay even more into their profit margins.
Prices won't go down, companies will pocket the difference
Oh, they'll go down.... But it won't be nearly as much as it went up to cover the tariff.
What I'm thinking is, let's say a widget is $100, tariffs go in at, say 5%. So it should cost $105, but the price increases to $110. People cry bloody murder, but ultimately they "need" the widget so they buy it. Tariffs go away, yay, the price is dropped, it's now $107.99
that's what I'm thinking.
Also it's all the Democrats fault.
In practice, that's not what happens generally. A widget is $100, the 5% tariff brings it up to $105 and company bumps the price to $110. People need the widget so they buy it at $110. Tariff goes away, but company knows that people will pay at least $110 for the widget, so they try bumping the price to $115. Maybe it doesn't sell, so they "discount" it back to $110 and people will happily buy it thinking they're getting a deal, while the company is pocketing that extra $10.
That's certainly a possibility.
I would argue that we're both right depending on what the widget is.
(Assuming the price is changed to be proportional and appropriate for the product) Something like a grocery item is more prone to my thought, and something that has generational differences, such as a laptop or something, will likely follow your theory more closely.
I think a lot of this will still be tied to price elasticity. If the price is very elastic then the former system would be more likely. Drop the price so you can push more units (and overall, profit goes up), where things that are far less elastic, say, an iPhone, would tend to simply continue to increase like the latter system you describe.
At the end of the day, both are horrid, terrible, and very very common. So I'll finish by saying: no matter what happens, people are going to be getting massively fucked, and corporations will post record profits yet again.
Fuck corporations.
I want everyone to be angry enough to do something about this.
How do we get everyone angry.
You spew this every day for the next four years with as wide a firehose as possible. Track every tariff and price it effects, scream it into every tar pit media site out there. Literally just shove this in everyone's faces for this entire time. Every time.
Won't work, they yell "fake news" then bury their heads in the sand like they always do.
Idk misinformation tactics would probably work the same for information and with Republicans theres enough hidden truth to firehose. We aren't swaying MAGAts. We're grabbing those dumb centrists
A proper education would have done it.
Let's be reasonable here.
How do we get everyone angry.
This is the problem --- taking away my coffee makes me angry, but I'll be too tired to do anything about it.
nor the desire to build their own shit
I would say that we've also largely lost the means to afford stuff built here, in large part as a consequence of our endless pursuit of cheap crap while scraping the bottom of the barrel with outsourcing. Even if you want to buy domestically-made goods, since we've lost so many of those good union jobs, especially in manufacturing, we no longer have the means to pay what it costs to make such a product with American workers. Especially if people intend to continue with their current consumerist trends.
I'm making $20/hour at the moment. If I want to buy American, union-made shoes, it'll run me $400 a pair, on the lower end. I think it's pretty reasonable to have a pair of work boots, a pair of regular shoes for wearing out and about, and a pair of dress shoes, which at that low end will run me 37.5% of my monthly gross pay. Now do the same for domestically produced clothing, and you've probably run up a bill of several month's pay, just to have enough outfits to last you a single week, leaving aside coats, seasonal clothing, or formal attire. We're either going to have to sharply curtail our purchasing and focus on buying a smaller amount of goods meant to last as long as possibly, or the sadly more likely scenario, we'll see the establishment of domestic sweatshops to fuel the consumerist impulses of what remains of the middle class and up. Whether we'll just go even more insane in our treatment of the poor here, or use prison labor and undocumented migrants "pending" deportation in these sweatshops remains to be seen, but Americans have demonstrated we shortsightedly value our ability to accumulate cheap trash over anything else.
I'd love to be proven wrong, and see a growth of strong unions and domestic production leading to a resurgence in American craftsmanship again, but the current environment is less than amenable to this outcome, to put it mildly.
I don't mean to imply the US should go back to manufacturing their own goods like they had to before global trade was economical.
I hope the point I'm making is that the people like Trump, mostly aggressive capitalists, are significantly in favor of these trends, and adding tariffs to imported goods will harm the businesses that the tariff is intended to protect.
Sales will drop because most goods are simply more price elastic than that. Cost goes up, sales drop, and overall you lose profits. When costs go up, alternative products are supposed to take up the business you lost by raising prices.
Though, to be fair, that price elasticity model is broken. Most product types have been agglutinated into a couple of large companies in an oligopoly, so all brands of that kind of product raise prices to match all the other brands. With no other competition in the market, consumers have the "choice" of paying more for the same thing, or not buying it.
In any case, the entire economy has been so thoroughly fucked by corporations that is just a money printing machine for the ultra rich to get richer.
I've depressed myself now. I'm gonna go.
I didn't think you were, I was more saying that the loss of many of those jobs that had been outsourced in the pursuit of cheap stuff means that, even if Trump's proposed tariffs were effective at bringing those jobs back, it might not matter because they would still cost more than most residents of the US would be able to afford. At least, with current working conditions, many of these goods would simply cost more than people would be willing to pay, as we've been collectively conditioned to want as much stuff as possible, as cheap as possible. Domestic production of so many goods would require a drastic shift in consumer habits to even have a chance at being viable in the long term, but they absolutely couldn't do the sort of volume that places like China has and be able to sell at a profit, barring the implementation of Chinese-style working conditions.