Stubsack: weekly thread for sneers not worth an entire post, week ending Sunday 1 September 2024
Stubsack: weekly thread for sneers not worth an entire post, week ending Sunday 1 September 2024
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So the orange site is having a normal one over Python BFDL trying to skirt CoC by talking about mod actions against some old dude who caught a suspension for being precisely the sort of edgelord poaster I'd expect out of a Python maintainer, which the orange site was also not happy about. I even read a bunch of his posts in the thread, like where he calls people standing up to NixOS leadership "true villains".
These are not "Python community guidelines". These are the guidelines of a tyrannical clique who have grabbed power and control the access to the infrastructure.
Lmao, fucking armchair revolutionaries at it again with interpreting a list of rules which essentially boils down to "don't be an asshole" as the literal end of civilization because it's attacking their
assumed right to use slurs and insultsfree speech.Makes you think that it's always the same kind of people who seem to have a problem with not being a racist twat in a public space. Feels like I've seen similar discussions a dozen times in the Rust community too whenever the term inclusivity comes up.
I prefer the Jimmy Wales version of authority. The project operates democratically, but Jimmy always retains the ultimate authority to act as a sovereign at the end of the day because he built it, has the reputation of the project to protect, and it's his legacy. The option to fork the project will always be there if the people want new leadership.
Setting aside the blithe just-fork-it-ism and the insult to the people who actually write the articles... Isn't Wales just one of a dozen people on the Wikimedia Foundation board of trustees now?
also, isn't this congruent to how Iran works?
Ayatollah Jimmy has some zazz, admittedly
oh my god, that weird fash fucker is absolutely pulling a NixOS and trying to burn down the Python community over a well-deserved 3 month suspension
and the only reason I know about this shit even though I’m barely involved with Python in any regard is because one of his fans/alts was spamming mastodon with a blog post defending him, and fully half of it by scroll bar position was just fluffing the fucker’s previous achievements, then at almost exactly the halfway point it started describing all the shit he did and hoo boy does he deserve a lot more than a 3 month suspension
it’s fascinating how this is almost exactly the same situation as with what’s-his-face getting suspended from Nix and the project’s older maintainers pulling ranks to get the toxic fucker back
There certainly is a pattern of people who used to be helpful and productive in the past who then turn into edgelords in the community later, and nobody dares to go after them because past achievements pattern.
Lol, of course the edgelords (I think there were 2, not really clear to me atm) have Dutch names. Typisch. Anyway, we tech people really need to learn that being good in tech, and getting tech changes approved is different from being good at modern community management and avoiding the pitfalls of those.
Anyway, we tech people really need to learn that being good in tech, and getting tech changes approved is different from being good at modern community management and avoiding the pitfalls of those.
That'd require them to be decent human beings, but from what I've seen I'm not counting on it
Yup I refused to even post that nonsense because I did the exact same scroll through it and was nonplussed by the amount of preamble this dude absolutely did not merit in defense of his terminal poaster syndrome.
preamble
more like preramble, eh?
stealing that for the next time I make a naughty lorawan module
Dang it, am I going to have to learn a new programming language after 24 years of getting things done in Python because the edgelords are indulging in a fit of pique?
god I hope Python of all things has enough eyes on it that this throw yourself on the ground in agonizing pain and flood the community with a bunch of fash assholes because you got a 3-month suspension shit won’t work, but I’m still astonished it works at all given how obvious it is when it happens
what's really lol is how this whole arc is developing
at the start, the announcement about peters being canned for 3 months was really rather obtuse, not even naming the person or pointing at specific threads (just enumerating repeat problems). why, i have no idea
so now mcdipshit et co are doing their utter best to publicise themselves as crybabies who just got told "no, bad, don't do that" and did not like it one bit. but the friends they're choosing... oi.
I mean, this is why I left during the Python 3 arguments. It was obvious that the core development team only functions to the extent that it can improve the (economic) exploitability of CPython by the consortium which has captured it, and that we'd become so technically dysfunctional that we were no longer able to implement forward-compatible syntax, something we'd had as recently as Python 2.5 but had lost by Python 2.7. The inability of the various "authority" groups like PyCA or PyPA to get things done once-and-for-all is another symptom; there is still no single holistic solution for cryptography or packaging in Python 3.
Like, I recall having dinner with Guido and Barry (and others; like ten of us at a Chinese restaurant) in Montreal. It was very obvious that Guido not only didn't grok concepts like pure functions or capabilities or asynchrony, but fundamentally not interested in how they could improve the state of software engineering; he is forever in the mindset of making a teaching language, not a professional language. I also recall discussing with him years earlier (Portland?) about how libraries like Twisted or Django fundamentally only justify their existence by pointing to deficiencies in the standard library, and he didn't understand that a bad standard-library package can be worse than not having one at all. At least he's a nice person; at no point was there any yelling or tenseness, and I appreciate that.
That said, I use Python 3 all the time. I just keep in mind that I shouldn't prefer it, and I only choose it when there's a clear developer-time tradeoff, because I know that its maintainers are contemptuous of me merely for using Python 2.7 and PyPy.
and he didn’t understand that a bad standard-library package can be worse than not having one at all
screams in mime, datetime, yaml, The Long Road To Py3.7+, and more
That said, I use Python 3 all the time. I just keep in mind that I shouldn’t prefer it, and I only choose it when there’s a clear developer-time tradeoff
not a week goes by that I am not still awestruck by still how many places there are to stub one's toe with py3-cluster things
samesies on still using python in some places. god I wish I could find something else that filled the same first-reach gaps as nicely.
My conspiracy theory is that they're all deep cover agents for MathWorks.
So it's entirely unclear from that HN thread, but where did this dumbassery start?
it probably isn’t exactly where it started as the entire thing’s in bad faith, but I’ve found the blog post being spammed absolutely everywhere at the time that went into excruciating detail on tim’s history with python then tried its best (and absolutely failed) to paper over and misrepresent the shit Tim did that got him temporarily ejected
e: my strong personal impression is that Tim’s just been like this for 30 years, and nobody managed to call him out before cause he’s the Timsort guy and open source projects always seem to think technical achievement should absolve you of all the other shit you do, regardless of how much that shit damages the project technically
Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”,
lol yeah this was the line at which the post revealed its entire ass
it’s remarkable that the post spends so many paragraphs priming the reader into thinking Tim’s an irreplaceable part of the Python community and should never have been suspended, and now at least two people have gotten to that exact sentence and gone “no actually fuck Tim”
if memory serves, it gets much more mask off from there, but I remember I didn’t finish the entire thing before I closed the tab and started blocking Tim’s fans
this guy was IIRC also furiously defending the totally not nazis at Nix
still this post is a glorious example of a defense brief that would work even better for the prosecution
i did stumble over a worse one just now: a guy banned from the Mesa community for being a Nazi defends himself by saying he only said that:
if I run a discord server around cultivating tomatoes, I should not exclude people based on their political beliefs, unless they use my discord server to spread those views. which means even if they are literally adolf hitler, I shouldn't care, as long as they don't post about gassing people on my server
that is inclusivity
and writing a prosecution brief about himself in his defense
Yes, you unfortunately are seeing right. A person (name of whom I will censor even though you can find their name easily by going to the issue page) went onto the Hyprland bug tracker, to call me, a Nazi.
ah, this is the part of the Wayland community that’s now notorious for being a Nazi bar, specifically because their discord and every other community space did in fact have a gigantic number of nazis (some of whom were moderators) “joking” about, among other things, gassing people
e: (and also just a fuckton of outright bigotry, see Drew’s posts on this for a sample of what I mean)
here’s Drew Devault’s take on that blog post and also his first blog post that covered the ways in which Hyprland is a Nazi bar
Imagine being so bad Drew Devault of all people rightly calls you out on your toxic behavior.
To be fair Drew has tried to be a better person lately.
Good on him. All that drama can't be healthy in the long run.
a guy banned from the Mesa community for being a Nazi
lol I learned about this the other day when marcan posted about it, and I had a good giggle
iirc: poor l'il fashbaby has some kind of problems with his thing, but he can't turn anywhere because the linux graphics community is kinda small and enough people went "lol get fucked" that it effectively closed doors everywhere
the world's smallest violin, etc etc
wayland, right, but it's for urbit
Actually reading the python discussion boards, what's striking is the immense volume of chatter produced by Tim, always in couched in:
- "Hypothetically"
- "Everyone tells me they are terrified of inclusivity, you wouldn't know because they are terrified of admitting it to YOU"
- "I'm not saying that you are an awful person 😉" (YMMV: But I find his use of the winking face emoji truly egregious)
- "Hey I'm liberal like you, let me explain everything wrong with it"
- "Hey we were inclusive before any of this PC bullshit" proceeds to use unpleasant descriptors of marginalized individuals, and how very welcome they were, despite what he seems to see as "shortcomings"
In his heart he must understand how bad he his, or he wouldn't couch his discourse in so much bad faith, and he wouldn't make so much of a stink out of making removing Python Fellow status more easy to remove.
Tim defended neither of these, only engaging in a conversation with someone who had, noting that in globally diverse communities that the required narrative may be more complex than oppressor-oppressed by simple binary color of skin.
With no link to any additional context
FYI, Python is named after Monty Python
NO? Really?! Educate me, hackernews!
condescending Wonka.jpgI wanted to torture myself so I looked into that person's posting history. They have made the exact same point that "Monty Python in fact used to mock the gays, how ironic huh?!?" three times in a row in different threads, really showing it to them wokes
But does he know that one of the Pythons was a member of the UK Gay Liberation Front?
Graham Chapman was, ironically enough, impeccable as the straight man of the group.