Pope criticised for saying Ukraine should ‘raise white flag’ and end war with Russia
Pope criticised for saying Ukraine should ‘raise white flag’ and end war with Russia
Francis’s failure to condemn Moscow as aggressor decried as ‘shameful’ and ‘incomprehensible’
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Why not call for a full Russian withdrawl instead? Why should the defenders of their homeland be the ones to surrender?
The fact that a former Superpower was not able to roll Ukraine in the first 10 days, 100 days, what is it now? 745 days... yeah. It's time for Russia to get out.
I think that's not how war works.
Usually, the winning side doesn't leave when they're winning.
It's up to the losing side to surrender.
Things would be different if Ukraine had a chance at winning, but that's not likely to happen.
Edit: I just want you all to think about how you feel now and compare it to when Ukraine loses. Do you remember when Ukraine's counteroffensive was starting? How confident you were that they could win?
This is what I mean by you people being victims of propaganda without even realizing. Average just keeps getting lower as time goes on.
People said Ukraine would be flattened in a month like... Two years ago now. If you think Ukraine doesn't have a chance of winning, you're not paying the slightest amount of attention.
If Russia could win, they'd have done it by now. This is Afghanistan 2.0 for Russia.
Either that or they like shilling for papa Putin or something. Who knows.
This is way, way worse than Afghanistan. They lost 20k troops in Afghanistan, and a small fraction of the equipment they've lost in Ukraine. How many A-50s and flagships did they lose back then? They're getting literally decimated or worse when you look at lost troops, jets, armor, and ships.
Afghanistan helped destabilize the USSR. Hopefully Ukraine destabilizes Russians current Mafia government and gives the Russians another shot at democracy.
Whoa... maybe not brightest for this, but i hadn't even considered the Afghan war comparisons. Its incredible how so much fewer troops perished then, and we still look at the war as critically destabilizing the USSR.
Heres hoping for much worse of the same this time.
Yes, it's also sad. Back than Russian mothers who lost sons in the war were able to organize and push back. These days they can't even wave a blank flag.
we going by numbers? because there are A LOT of dead russians littering the fields in Ukraine.
Can you please close Putin's cock-sheath?
Everyone expected Ukraine to be steamrolled virtually instantly.
Instead they have held on for 745 days, killed innumerable Russians and destroyed god knows how many tanks, planes, and ships.
You can never under-estimate the will of people fighting for their home country.
How do you figure ukraine won't win?
You my friend have been propagandised yourself ukraine without funding will lose. Ukraine with funding will win. Russia is doing eveeything in its power to stop funding. The narative that ukraine has already won/lost is russian propaganda to stop funding.
Grow up learn how a friggin war works and stop being a shill for russian propaganda.
Ukraine with funding will win.
Just like with their counteroffensive?
At what point do you people admit you were wrong about something?
They went for a significant push to try get behind the lines it didnt work cos funding was delayed and they didnt have the reasources earlyer (at that point they where still missing many of the resources they have now). They switched tacktics after that point its called adaptation tends to be needed in war its russias akillies heel. Then with the new stratedgy they where making significant ground on the offensive far greater than what russia has been latly ukrain also managed this with a truly impressive kd ratio.
I know im not wrong ive looked at the map ive plotted respurces on a graph russias resources have a y intercept as long as ukraine is being funded they do not thus they can sustain the war for longer.
You my friend are clearly a russian shill even if ukraine is gonna lose its still a more efficient way to fight them than doing it ourselves they will fuck with nato that will cost the western world deerly instead we give ukraine old shit they fight for us and save shitonnes of money since that must be all u care about cos human life clearly doesnt matter to u.
At what point do you people admit you were wrong about something?
I guess not today...
Either give me a counter to my points.
Admit that you were wrong about something.
Or shut the fuck up and admit you have no clue what your talking about.
Pick one!!!
Snarky comments is simply u deflecting from your incapability to engage with someone in a civil discussion about a topic you clearly feel very strongly about.
The state of the war is about a hell of a lot more than the location of the front lines. How much progress has Afghanistan made in pushing back the American invasion before the Taliban effectively won? Ditto that for the previous Russian invasion.
The fact that Russia's entire Black Sea fleet is afraid to leave port is pretty important, especially when it allows Ukraine to continue shipping grain. The ability of Ukraine to strike accurately deep into Russian territory, and the inability of Russia to defend it's critical infrastructure is also relevant. Corruption drains far more of Russia's resources than it does Ukraine's, and authoritarian leadership means frontline units are unable to respond quickly to changing conditions. That's a small part of why Russian moral is so low that troops must be deployed to shoot frontline troops as they try to escape. That's not happening on the Ukrainian side.
It seems to me that Ukraine is still very much in this fight. It's not like Russian advances have been all that effective.
It's crazy people like you think you have a point with comments like these.
Just another reason why I don't take the masses seriously at this point.
Well fuck russia 2x, then.
Because if you did take other people seriously you'd have to admit you're wrong?
You need to see a doctor to get your humanity checked. It seems not to be working.
Russia isn't winning. Ukraine isn't losing.
Right now, it's a stalemate. The longer it goes on, the more likely Ukraine will lose. Russia has more people, and Ukraine can't strike deep into Russia.
What surprised me was that Russia seemed to have solved its ammunition problem. It would appear Russia is out-producing the West in artillery rounds.
I am pro-Ukrainian, but I don't want Americans on the ground in Ukraine. They must fight their own battle, but I support sending weapons. I wish we had some more weapons earlier before the Russians could entrench like they did. That is why the counter-offensive failed.
Russia will lose if its people get tired of this war. At some point, mothers will not want to send their children to die in a war they didn't want. People like to paint Russians as monsters, but most Russian people are decent people. Their government has fed them lies, and they thought they were the good guys. Most of the kids fighting over there think they are removing Nazis. Most of them are drafted and most likely don't even want to be there.
One thing that drives me nuts is how people think everything is so black and white. The world is very grey. Good kids on both sides are dying because Putin wants Ukraine.
If you have never read or watched All is Quiet on the Western Front, I think it accurately describes what is happening.
They must fight their own battle...
To what end? Is this stance worth losing a free nation to Russia if only supporting via arms isn't enough anymore?
I'm honestly curious why you feel this way.
For me, generally, I don't really enjoy the idea of sending our military into places like the Middle East; at best we're teetering on the line of actually being the aggressors in those conflicts, and at worst actually are just clearly at fault. But I kind of think, for once, the issue at hand in Ukraine is pretty cut and dry at this point. If push came to shove and they really desperately needed support from allies, I can't think of a more righteous use of our military than to defend Ukraine.
You shouldn't bother talking to Wintermute. They're a mod of lemm.ee's conservative community, and they never argue in good faith. Ever.
Duly noted, thanks.
I’m honestly curious why you feel this way
It’s not our battle to fight. If you want to die for Ukraine, sign up. I have no desire to die for Ukraine. Most Americans don’t want to die for Ukraine. I’d resign my commission if called up for Ukraine.
Give them weapons and let them win their own fight.
Europe has an interest in defending Ukraine as they may be next but it’s of no interest of ours.
It's not just about Ukraine, that was clear two years ago. It's about European stability and alliances with other democracies. If Europe falls to authoritarians the US will be isolated and vulnerable.
Americans should support Ukraine out of self interest if nothing else.
Europe isn't going to fall. If Russia attacks a NATO nation, then we have an obligation to get involved.
That's presumably true now, although certainly a lot of uncertainty surrounds it. What about in 20 years after another couple decades or Kremlin propaganda on social media?
By then, Putin will be dead. Fingers crossed, Russia will get someone better in the next round.
Putin doesn't have twenty years if the rumors are true. Five at the most.
There are others just as bad and worse ready to replace Putin.
Would you expect that when a mob boss dies they replace him with a benevolent leader?
Interesting stance.
So, not to throw around too many hypotheticals, but it sounds like by your logic you also would have been opposed to our participation in World War II as well?
I'm just trying to parse your train of thought here.
We were attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. We had no choice but to enter the war. Germany declared war on America after the attack.
People keep saying that the longer it goes on the more it favors Russia, but the Kremlin is the one with questionable support and disarray. Ukrainians are united, they want to defend themselves. Morale is in Ukraine's side.
Also, France is putting together a coalition to send troops. Who's going to go back the Kremlin up? Nobody... they have no friends, no good will, just rough agreements with other authoritarian governments.
It is a numbers game. Russia has more cannon fodder. The Russians didn't defeat germany by being better, they defeated Germany by throwing more people at the problem.
Who will back Russia? North Korea, Iran, and possibly China.
If we are distracted in Ukraine, North Korea can invade South Korea, Iran can stir the pot, and China will take Taiwan. All places where we have treaties to prevent just that from happening. Our military is not designed to fight on that many fronts at once.
Just because Russia has a larger population doesn't mean they can use it how they want. Ukrainians want to fight and defend their home and families, there's nothing like that in the Russian military.
The US could commit some forces to Ukraine without weakening their ability to defend Taiwan.
I agree that's the big picture though. Those authoritarian governments, with some support from BRICS and other dictatorships like Venezuela, are challenging the US-Euro hegemony.
They’ve been doing it for years how they want. Putin doesn’t like when people disagree. I’ve never seen so many people accidentally fall out of windows.
Until you see units refusing to go to war, my point stands.
Russia was literally forcing poorly equipped and even more poorly trained prisoners to rush at the enemy and absorb bullets.
As for units refusing to fight, we have seen second line Russians mowing down front line Russians trying to escape the battlefield. There have also been recent reports of Russian pilots sabotaging their own aircraft to keep themselves from flying dangerous missions. Of course there were also the Wagner troops that started marching on Moscow.
There have been many people refusing to fight for the Kremlin. They have a blocking line that kills their soldiers if they turn around... that's their level or morale.
That is Russia being Russia. They did that in ww2.
Not sure how “historical” everything is but they showed that in enemy at the gates. That really was a shocking scene.
Yeah, I feel bad for the young men forced into the trenches.
We learned from WWII that appeasement doesn't work, and that democracies need to stand together to defend our freedom.
NK invading SK would be roundly crushed in an afternoon by the carrier group posted there SPECIFICALLY to prevent that from happening, not to mention SK forces themselves.
Taiwan is in the middle of building up their forces again, we have forces in the region ready and able to assist (posted there, again, specifically to deter Chinese aggression), and we have ally forces across southeast Asia, including Vietnam, New Zealand, and Australia, who are willing and able to come help if needed.
Iran? Seriously? They're still having trouble keeping a lid on their own populace last I checked. And if they "stir the pot" by aiding Palestine or Yemen...well, Israel has been looking for a good reason to simply wipe Iran from the map for the last several decades.
NK invading SK would be roundly crushed in an afternoon by the carrier group posted there SPECIFICALLY to prevent that from happening, not to mention SK forces themselves.
I would like to see which military war game has ever shown that. I have never seen that at all. Can you please show the citation for that since it contradicts everything I have ever read on the topic.
aiwan is in the middle of building up their forces again, we have forces in the region ready and able to assist (posted there, again, specifically to deter Chinese aggression), and we have ally forces across southeast Asia, including Vietnam, New Zealand, and Australia, who are willing and able to come help if needed.
We do not have a force large enough to fight China in the region while we are tied up in Ukraine. Vietnam is not going to war with China. New Zealand and Australia do not have a capable enough force to add much value. That is why they are asking the United States to build bases.
I agree that the world is not black and white, but I struggle with the "good kids on both sides".
"Good" is a tricky word just generally. I think you might have said there were "previously innocent" kids on both sides, but they're no longer so.
Yet another shade of grey, but I suspect that a lot of the kids doing the fighting have become depraved sadists.
If you are forced to do something, do you lose your innocence? It's why so many Russians have surrendered. It isn't a war they want to be in.
I have noticed that Russia used many people from the Far East during the war. These people don't have the same ties to Ukraine, and I think that was done on purpose. They seem more willing to fight since they don't have that shared culture or history with the Ukrainians.
If you are being told, you are going to fight Nazis and all the horrible things they have done, wouldn't you think you are the hero? I think they don't know the truth until they get to the front or surrender.
They may be innocent, but have lost their innocence.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/innocence
The institutionalised torture on the part of the Russians is designed to change the cognitive behaviour of their troops. Devaluing human life, trivialising violence, and establishing corporal punishment as an appropriate response to ideological differences.
In summary, Russian troops may have had some kind of childish innocence when they left home, but as a result of being forced to participate in depraved acts of violence, are probably no longer good boys.
I will never paint any group with a large brush. It’s dehumanizing to people. It’s how we justify killing others.
Mate, this conversation started by you saying "they're mostly good kids", which sounds fairly "large brush" to me.
The attrocities of war run much deeper than people dying. There are people that will carry psychological wounds for the rest of their lives. I think it's very important to acknowledge that, lest we forget.
Do you remember when Ukraine’s counteroffensive was starting? How confident you were that they could win?
Not particularly high. This was stated in Feb 2023, before the counteroffensive started:
Russia will struggle to adapt to the increased capability Western tanks will bring to Ukraine. But the tanks currently on offer—thirty-one US Abrams, fourteen UK Challengers, and fourteen German Leopards—will not turn the tide of the war. There are reports that France, Poland, and Canada will also provide tanks to Ukraine, although how many and when is unknown. For Western assistance to enable a Ukrainian military victory, four things must happen. First, Western countries would need to provide enough tanks to give Ukraine a devastating offensive punch. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has put this number at 300–500 tanks, far more than the fifty-eight currently on offer. Tanks are most effective when formed into battalions (thirty to forty tanks as Ukraine structures them) and brigades (ninety to 120 tanks). Zelensky’s number, which he certainly got from his military commanders, seems designed to allow Ukraine to form four new brigades of Western tanks, each composed of three battalions. Used properly, four new tank brigades would represent a ground offensive capability that could be decisive.
They never got the tanks in the numbers laid out above. Not even close. This was all predicted ahead of time.
Ukraine won't lose outright at this point. Russia is not capable of mounting a large offensive anymore. There is no chance they get fully absorbed into Russia. However, there are ranges of winning and losing that are on the table; without more support, they're not going to be able to retake land to the east and south, nor retake Crimea.
That's right. Keep pivoting and moving goalpoasts instead of admitting you were wrong.
Anything to avoid admitting you may be a victim of propaganda and indoctrination.
Remember, if they're not a Ukraine shill, then they're a Russian shill. Lol.
What goalposts? That was stated ahead of time. The goalposts are right there where they always were.
Ukraine's counteroffensive was a failure, but you're still trying to paint it as a win while saying if they received more aid then it would be successful.
You are incapable of admitting when you're wrong or a victim of propaganda.
No, I didn't. I said it would fail if they didn't get the tanks. They never got the tanks, and it failed.
"I'm not a Russian propagandist. Let me prove it by completely misrepresenting you."
but you’re still trying to paint it as a win while saying if they received more aid then it would be successful.
You are incapable of admitting when you’re wrong or a victim of propaganda.
I rest my case.
Hold on, maybe I'm making some bad assumptions here. Do you realize that Feb 2023 was a little over a year ago? If not, I apologize for assuming you know what year it is.
You are incapable of admitting when you’re wrong or a victim of propaganda.
Oh brother. 🙄
Americans... ☕
Yep.