Phoronix: Linus Torvalds Comments On The Russian Linux Maintainers Being Delisted
Phoronix: Linus Torvalds Comments On The Russian Linux Maintainers Being Delisted
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Is there a specific reason for this?
Finland is experiencing suspicious acts of sabotage and disruption and believes Russia is engaged in broad-ranging influence operations against it and other European countries
Since Linus is Finnish, this literally hits home for him, hence (probably) his reaction.
Yes, the sanctions against Russia, as mentioned by Linus. The change also said the maintainers "can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided".
My guess is that the Linux Foundation must ensure that none of the people they work with are in any way associated with any organisation, person or activity on the sanctions list. And that they preemptively removed all maintainers that might risk violating the sanctions while they work with them to establish whether they might be covered by the sanctions or not.
Regardless of what you or they think of the sanctions, they are the law, and I don't think anyone wants the Linux Foundation to have to spend their money on lawyers and fines because they had a maintainer who also worked on a research project funded by a sanctioned entity. (If that is how it works, IANAL)
OK, that's the first reasonable explanation I've come across. I wish Greg didn't reply in that kind of "angry" tone, because for some of us it's not that obvious.
Compliance with sanctions from the US and EU IIRC
Sanctions apply on OS development?
I dont know ennough on the topic, does this ecen check out?
Yes they do. See the long-standing debate over the ban to export crypto algorithms to Iran.
As they said in the article, they are just listening to their lawyers. I would assume those lawyers are correct.
Ah, lawyers, the people renowned for always being honest and doing the right thing
Lawyers tend to be honest to the people they're being paid by.
Lawyers will also usually advice the safer option. Even if your actions are legal, if its boarderline enough you have to defend your actions in court, its expensive and risky.
That's a generic fuck you, I don't need to explain myself.
Which does make me question their reasoning even more tbh
Nobody has stated any actual reason. Based on Linus' comments, Russophobia is the likely answer.
this comment is bait, do not interact
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I'd say that it's not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it's a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn't a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can't be a part of kernel development team. There's of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I've seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the "sanctions" (for a lack of better word) aren't overshooting anything, but they're instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn't unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we're living in, I'd rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn't take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don't need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
I mean, if my country suffered through the Winter War, I'd consider that a very rational fear.
I'm sure Jews are pretty nervous around German hyper-nationalists too.
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I'd say that it's not uncontrollable and very much not irrational.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn't a thing back then).
This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
Though I don't see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can't be a part of kernel development team.
To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I'd a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
Personally I've seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the "sanctions" (for a lack of better word) aren't overshooting anything, but they're instead leveling the playing field.
Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia.
Ok, seems logical so far.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: "Don't brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass."?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: "Don't brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass."?
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis,, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
I mean fuck Russia, but if these people aint regime whores for Putin I don't get the angle here...
If there is no security issue, this seems excessive.
The security issue is very likely scenario. If you're in Russia, you can go to jail at any moment on totally bogus charges. It is very easy for FSB to pressure some random kernel maintainer into adding hard to detect backdoor into their code, it will be XZ situation all over again.
thank you... now this makes sense.
so presumably this applied to Russians nationals living within Russia.
If that's accurate, the measure is proper IMHO
Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.
Hmm yes, we all remember when noted liberal Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest geopolitical threat facing the US.
LiBruLz!!1
Stop applying right wing US politics nonsense to other countries.
And fuck off with the "Ukraine are Nazis" nonsense, gimboid.
Liberalism is primarily an international term. You are very confused if you think it is just about US "left" politics.
And I said that there are Ukrainian Nazis whose racism is repeated by liberals. This is a simple fact.
Ukrainian Nazis
this propaganda is no longer any good bro... 2014-22, it was decent engagement slop for the westoid but it don't work. why are y'all still using it?
Because liberals repeated and repeat the talking points of Ukrainian Nazis.
You seem to be under the midapprheen that they either didn't exist or went away. That would be incorrect.
i trust you bro
No need for trust, it is public record
I'm well aware that liberal is an international term.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean "left wing" or "relating to the Democrat party".
People in the US wouldn't describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.
Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.
But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
When he says "Liberals love collective punishment..." he is not saying left wing, he is saying loudly right wing.
No, he is applying conspiracy theorist nonsense that you often hear from the crazier US Republicans.
There is nothing about collective punishment that aligns with liberal thought. In fact liberalism is just about the diametric opposite lol.
I really need to learn to not even engage with anybody from lemmy.ml. it's always people who simp for Putin.
I'm well aware that liberalism is an international term.
Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean "left wing" or "relating to the Democrat party".
Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
You absolutely were using it in that sense.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense is very much a Russian talking point, and even one of the defenses given by Russia in starting their war/genocide.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
You absolutely were using it in that sense.
I was not. Please do your best to participate in good faith and not make things up, let alone make them up and then repeatedly assert them based on nothing.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
That is true, but also does not contradict anything I have said, nor does it excuse those who repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense
I haven't said anything like this. That is your insertion.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Please stop lying about what I have said.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
It's not me, it is you doing a poor job at wrestling with your cognitive dissonance. My mere mention of Russophobia from liberals, borrowed from Ukrainian Nazis, resulted in you inventing entire lines of thought and arguments that were not there rather than directly engaging with the facts if the matter. This is defensive behavior intended to avoid what I said and return to an arena where you feel more comfortable.
Not ironically, that arena is one where you feel comfortable being against Russia, lmao.
I mean, I hate most Russians, but only since they invaded Ukraine.
Russia whines endlessly about ancient wrongs against them, the Finns have a lot to remember about Russia too.
Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.
Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.
I think Palestinians have a right to be angry at Israelis, even to the point of potential violence.
Much in the same way I think Russians have long passed a historical threshold for which we should consider whether they are compatible with civilized society.
We gave them a shot after the USSR fell, they didn't take the opportunity to clean up their act.
So now we're going back to it, confrontation.
Only this time we're not 2-3x stronger than them, we're 10-20x. I like those odds.
I think Palestinians have a right to be angry at Israelis, even to the point of potential violence.
And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren't actively expressing racism towards them.
But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.
But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.
Much in the same way I think Russians have long passed a historical threshold for which we should consider whether they are compatible with civilized society.
This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.
We gave them a shot after the USSR fell, they didn't take the opportunity to clean up their act.
tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.
So now we're going back to it, confrontation.
There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.
Only this time we're not 2-3x stronger than them, we're 10-20x. I like those odds.
I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.
I'm excited for Russia seeing justice.
And a world War?
With Russia and whose army? Because theirs can't handle Ukraine on their own. Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That's absolutely adorable.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that 'history'. Personally I'm looking forward to it with anticipation.
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of 'buffer states'. Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Russian hatred? We call that 'being European'.
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Ukranians aren't nazisThe ones that are, are.
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Misinformation, hate speech against UAOnly love speech for Banderites, please.
lmao
All it takes is reading the article to see why it was done. You clearly did not do that and instead inserted your own agenda.
I did read the article and drew the conclusion I just stated. Feel free to offer your own take.
While he certainly wasn’t sensitive about how he said it, he did state is was sanctions related.
He was not clear on that at all. For all we know it could be an excuse among the several vague ones he gave or a reference to pressure from Feds.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing.
If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam.The "various comoliance requirements" are unstated. Everything here is being left to a vague implication.
He just applied Russians’ favorite soviet era saying “those who is not with us is against us”
Who did that? And that is a cartoonish an embarrassing thing for you to say I'd a soviet saying, let alone a popular one.
Fuck Russia. Pretty good reason.
For what reason do all Russians deserve to be punished and excluded as pariahs?
This is not collective punishment.
Of course it is. It is punishing all members of a nationality for the actions if their government.
I didn't realize all Russians were in the Linux kernel maintainers file. Silly me.
A trivial bad faith reading. Think about it for a few seconds more: what qualified their removal?
Read a newspaper some time. You might learn a thing about that.
We aren't talking about "all Russians". What thread are you watching?
Of course you are. This thread is about people getting kicked off the maintainer list for simply being Russian and y'all are bleating "good, fuck Russia".
Yes. I am saying that the Russian people who were maintaining anything in the Linux kernel commits have a very real threat of not only being compromised to do ill, but also have their identity on the commit chain being taken over by state actors.
What in the hell are you arguing for here?
lmao what a load of crap.
But anyways thanks for contradicting yourself.
If I'm saying this, and the founders and mainters of the Linux Kernel agree, it really seems like I'm not wrong here.
Might be time reevaluate some stuff.
If I'm saying this, and the founders and mainters of the Linux Kernel agree, it really seems like I'm not wrong here.
Believe or not both you and Linus Torvalds can be wrong. Shocking, I know. I don't know how you'll break the news to your loved ones.
Might be time reevaluate some stuff.
Yes, like you contradicting your entire previous comment and then continuing on like nothing happened.
Being obediet dogs like germans during nazi regime.
Nearly all citizens are obedient to their countries. Why single out Russians?
Becuase russia and israel are causing seriouss issues currently.
Before you do america too... Decent part of america was not larping the war either. It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
Hopefully never again but who are we kidding...
Before you do america too
Yes this is the obvious cognitive dissonance that arises from my question. The US has invaded and bombed countries, couped countries, plunged millions into poverty and death, consistently for decades. Buy I don't see any if you saying, "Fuck America" and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
The US is backing Israel's genocide to the hilt righy now. It would not happen without American support that Israel depends on. And most European countries are backseat supporters if that agenda. Where is your bleating for villification of every person from all those countries?
Decent part of america was not larping the war either.
Which war? There have been so many US-bscked wars in recent years that I have no idea which one you would be referring to.
But I am confused about the qualifier. Who had said anything about larping? This is collective punishment and chauvinism against all Russians.
It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
Can I get a "Fuck America"?
Hopefully never again but who are we kidding...
Not just never again, it is happening right now, under Dems, with support of their candidates that is part of the admin doing genocide. Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
Buy I don't see any if you saying, "Fuck America" and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel... I don' think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
You should be if you respect your own thoughts that you are sharing.
Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia. Liberals taking their opportunity to be racist and xenophobic without being singled out as problematic.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel...
It is below the bare minimum, it is just slightly less jingoistic than in spaces curated by monopolies and staffed with literal feds. Pro-genocide discourse is strong here, it just hides behind electoralism discourse and feigned reluctance.
I don' think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
It won't be a mainstream opinion in US-centric spaces without political education of such people.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
It was a very small part of it, really. Liberals rewrote their histories about their support for wars of aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan. They pretend to have been against it when they were actually part of their version of the "silent majority" and rampant islamophobia. The protests rapidly ran out of steam as Americans don't even know how to fight against their state.
Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia.
yes 🤡
Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
There it is, .ml maga losers raising their heads off the mud again
I think you are confused. Being against the genocide of Gaza is not a MAGA thing.
Idk there fits many kind of Nazis in the maga crowd