Bad UX is keeping the majority of people away from Lemmy
Bad UX is keeping the majority of people away from Lemmy
This reddit post likely has tens if not hundreds of thousands of views, look at the top comment.
Lemmy is losing so many potential new users because the UX sucks for the vast majority of people.
What can we do?
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Joining is a bad experience. "Please commit now to a server on this service you know nothing about... Then you can try it out!" I understand the concept of decentralization, but it's ass-backwards...
The reddit concept of subreddits also doesn't work well with federation IMO (at least no Lemmy's implementation).
Want to talk about video games? Well, there's no /r/games, instead there are bunch of different /c/games on different servers with varying amounts of activity. You basically gotta make the "pick a server" decision again whenever you post something. If you make the wrong choice, your post might not get seen by anyone, and even if you post to the biggest sub, you'll be missing out on eyeballs from people on other servers who aren't subscribed to that instance for whatever reason.
For example, lemmy.ml/c/linux_gaming and lemmy.world/c/linux_gaming have around the same number of subscribers. Should I post to both? Maybe the same people subscribe to both, so that's pointless? Or maybe I'll miss out on a lot of discussion if I post only to one? There's no way for me to know.
For me, it makes Lemmy less useful than reddit for asking really niche questions and getting useful answers. For posting comments on whatever pops up in my feed though, it works great.
I don't have any good solutions to this, and I'm sure it has been considered already. When I first joined, I remembered seeing people bring this same issue up, but it doesn't seem like it went anywhere? (Or maybe it did?)
Its annoying but I also like it, you get different viewpoints and if you look at the feeds the focusses are usually different, like one might have mostly news and trailers, the other mostly discussions on questions, there are like 10 different shows movies tv communities
This isn't really a federation problem, and more that there isn't a clear "winner" yet.
Even on centralized platforms, you end up with multiple communities for the same topic, until one of them grows enough to beat out the rest. Then eventually a scandal might cause it to fragment again. There are also separate communities that keep going independently because of ideological differences. See the various international news subreddits
The movies communities here were like that, but now there is a pretty clear "main community"
Man. You just gave me an idea (which would matter if I wasn’t a complete idiot).
Instead of servers that all attempt to be a sort of clone of Reddit, servers could focus on content similar to the way subreddits work.
So you’d join any one of these servers and federate with other servers just like now, only content would be focused between servers.
Example:
This server is a games server. It has /c/games, /c/fallout, /c/vintagegaming, etc.
This server will focus on news and politics. It has /c/worldnews, /c/marketnews, etc.
Sure, it would still have the issue of being fractured, but it would narrow it down so much that it would be more appealing and easier to navigate.
It’s probably too late for that.
Ultimately, I’m happy with the fediverse. Algorithms aren’t dictating what I see. There’s no profit incentive that will lead to bad decisions, so when bad decisions are made, folks will talk about it and come to a solution.
I miss old Reddit, but it’s gone.
Thats topics lol, piefed and mbin, right now I think only admins can make them but they let tou put multiple communtiies under a topic
That’s what that Star Trek server did.
The problem with that is that you need to make a user on one of those servers. Do you make it on the politics one, or the games one? What happens 3 months later when you realize the server you picked on a whim is full of assholes and gets defederated?
Do you think an average user at that point would move their subscriptions to a new account or will they get annoyed at the concept?
And it's not like exporting your subs to a CSV file or something to then upload to your new account on your new instance will work. Different instances will have different communities, so it won't be a 1:1 transition.
I can definitely see the friction for new users if this happens.
We all know people are lazy, so if the friction proposed by Lemmy is more of a burden compared to the inconvenience proposed by Reddit or another social media platform, then people won't change.
It would be interesting if there could be some tool that proposes similar communities on the instance you're joining based on the communities you were subscribed to in your previous instance. Community federation could allow for that linked list that could be reverse searched and served to a user, precluded by uploading a CSV file of your previous communities so you don't have to keep track of individual users in a server somewhere (which is anti-privacy anyways, and Lemmy imho is pro-privacy).
The problem with that is that you need to make a user on one of those servers.
Why would you? The communities are accessible from every federated instance
My point is you have to pick SOME server to host your account. You are right that most communities are accessible from most servers, but that is where it becomes confusing for someone who just wants to look at memes for a specific fan base.
You can experience each server before making an account, you just can't post or subscribe. If someone is afraid of creating am account on an instance they may not like (which if I'm being honest is a slightly strange worry, as it costs nothing to sign up, and they can delete the account if they don't like it), they can spend as much time lurking without an account as they need.
I can’t speak for other people, but if lemmy.world were to shut down today I’d just pick another server.
I will admit, it was confusing and almost turned me off at first. I was very upset about the whole deal with third party apps on Reddit. My daughter gave me the whole email analogy and it cleared my hesitation to join Lemmy.
I don’t know how it is today, but I had to apply to join world when I first got on. It would be awesome if an app would sign a person up for, say, three different servers and sync settings between them. Something goes down, wouldn’t even notice.
Assholes ruin everything though and making it easier for bot accounts to exist would end badly.
I don’t know.
When I first got on here it was a mess. It didn’t work half the time and when it did no content was being generated. I stuck it out though and I’m glad I did.
I’m definitely not the right person to come up with any solutions.
This server is a games server. It has /c/games, /c/fallout, /c/vintagegaming, etc.
https://programming.dev/ is for programming
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/ hosts a lot of queer communities
I prefer [email protected] to the [email protected]
I think some servers do that? They definitely try to cater to niches.
It is definitely not too late for that.
For example, lemmy.ml/c/linux_gaming and lemmy.world/c/linux_gaming have around the same number of subscribers. Should I post to both? Maybe the same people subscribe to both, so that’s pointless?
.ml and world don't really share the same views and vibes
it doesn’t seem like it went anywhere?
Some communities consolidated. Electric cars did a few weeks ago. Cooking communities back in the days.
Some communities prefer to stay on their own.
[email protected] is trying to solve that issue, but regularly posting "the" community on a topic. But you can't prevent everyone to create new communities, the same way 90% of the subreddits are probably empty with a mssing mod
I think that's more of a feature, not a bug. It means if one group is doing a shitty job of running their community, it's easier to find another group of the same nature. I've noticed a lot of communities on .world are run a lot like the most popular subreddits where moderation of posts is highly aggressive, and seems aimed more at curating "high quality content" than actually being a community. Okay, easy enough, I just start posting to similar places on other instances, or start my own.
a lot of communities on .world are run a lot like the most popular subreddits where moderation of posts is highly aggressive, and seems aimed more at curating “high quality content” than actually being a community.
Also
- name squatters mods who never post anything but just stay there as the sole mod because they were there first
- powertripping [email protected]
I think this is a wrong mindset, you are supposed to be posting for the community, for the members of that community, not to be seen and praised through all the instances because that's how we got to the problem of getting the same post repeated over and over by the same person/script in all.
Of course that's my old man way of thinking, things should be posted once and let it federate, if it didn't reach an instance someone else might post it there, no need to hold all the glory, karma is just a number on lemmy anyway.
Unless they are a seller, then I'd see a reason for them to be creating spam.For that side of reddit, you're right.
But for the uniquely useful side of reddit, federation won't help. If I post a question like "how do I get this obscure game to run well on this obscure Linux distro?", nobody is going to repost that for me, and if I don't maximize the amount of eyeballs on it, it's unlikely I'll get an answer. My best choice is to post it on reddit, either in /r/linux_gaming or in the specific game's subreddit.
I assume that most users who post anything at all on reddit do it to ask questions like that.
And for some reason it seems like half of all distro specific communities are on .ml
The idea that one must commit, is the problem. At first, I signed up for 3 or 4 servers. It needs to be pointed out that no commitment is necessary.
So now you are telling a user to make 3 or 4 accounts at once
Not necessarily. That's just what I did.
The point is, they aren't making a permanent decision. They can switch or move at any time for any reason.Yeah but you have to see it through the normal-user eyes, for them just creating a new account is a whole ordeal, then they see that ordeal makes them investigate the server before picking and then it turns out they picked wrong... For them that's that and they delete the app (never deleting the account, mind you), branding the whole lemmy experience under whatever server they picked first.
If there was some sort of... Quiz? That could help them pick... But a brutally honest one, since some instances have pretty extremists opinions, new users have to know what they are dealing with.
I could see merit to that argilument if the sign-ups process was kind've a pain, but honestly it's so easy to create an account on Lemmy it's hard to give that too much credence. Most servers just want a username and a password, and many don't even require an email to verify. If putting in a username and password somewhere else because they didn't like their first instance is too much for them, that's a pretty flighty user to begin with, and they would probably leave for a host of other reasons too.
Saying that, a better way to narrow down that initial choice of server would not go amiss, but ultimately people will need to understand that this is all run by volunteers and there may be more bumps than a corporate controlled platform, but the other advantages (if they appeal to this theoretical user) are worth it.
Even with a better server picking tool, and even if they pick a server they like the first time, it's possible that server has to shut down some day due to unforeseen circumstances, and that user will have to either accept that they have to create a new account somewhere, or decide that's not an ideal UX and never come back, which would be a shame, but impossible to prevent.
You tell that to a normal user (and I mean NORMAL) and they will lose any interests in making the effort of attempting to pick a server... I know it sounds far fetched, but that's my experience with normal users, unless they have someone willing to hold their hand at every moment and every change, all these things scare them, no matter how simple they seem for us.
As someone who has had to explain to longtime Linux users why and how some arcane aspect of package management isn't grok-able by the common user, I understand where you're coming from with that point.
However, while I do agree the overall experience could be more intuitive and easier, if the first concepts of federation and picking a server is too much for someone, I don't know if that is possible to overcome since it's fundamental to this whole citizen controlled media experiment. Hopefully at some point in the future it becomes more popular, and thus the concept becomes more understandable and less scary due to seeing others get on with it, just like email.
People like that weren't going to add meaningfully to any discussion either way, if they flake that easily they were planning on lurking and likely wouldn't have commited to using this app over reddit, I was one of them til I got perm banned. I definitely preferred reddit because I had karma, over decade old accound so I could post wherever and had "credibility" in my head lol. Almost joined mbin before I realized I don't want user karma anymore. I do like post and comment upvotes/downvotes
People like to commit, though. They want to commit. They want to make an account and be done. The ability for established users and communities to move around is a great feature that makes Lemmy superior to other sites, but it really needs to work on making new users feel comfortable enough to stay put when they're first figuring things out, because if a new user decides to leave, they're probably not switching instances, they're switching platforms.
Having the ability to export your account data (say to a CSV) might be useful for this reason.
If you want to move to a new instance, you can pack your bags and head out.
You can probably imagine how this won't be a 1:1 transition, however, because the new instance might not have the same communities as the old instance. I commented on another thread about how it would be cool if Lemmy took your communities list, looked at how those communities federate for instance (or just do a word search on the new instance with names of the communities of the old instance), and serve you suggested new communities to subscribe to.
And if you can export your data, then there's no need to store it in a centralized way to make these types of actions doable, which favors privacy.
Some apps kinda let you do this
That's a good point. May be true.
Was your experience different between those 3-4 servers or was it pretty much universally consistent?
One didn't allow down votes. Seemed like a good idea. I rarely down vote. But in practice, when I do it's for a reason. And I want the option.
Another went down for roughly a week. So that didn't work out.
Which is one reason I embraced Communick; a paid instance. Been here since.
Communick is a nice option. I have an account there too. Unfortunately many Lemmings are weirdly hostile to it being a paid service, so it hasn't gotten much traction.
I think having more small business type Lemmy servers would be a decent solution to the onboarding difficulties people are discussing in this thread. There's definitely a chunk of users who just need the security of having someone to contact if they are confused about something or something isn't working. And if they're paying for it then the provider has an incentive to give them customer support.
Like I genuinely hope you dont pay that much littlecreek (im same dude as other comment) has a 3.50 deal for 4 core 4gb ram on lowendtalk, more than enough to run lemmy for yourself
I pay 7$ monthly for 8 core 16gb ram littlecreek, yunohost for free, installed lemmy on it, works solid, use like 10% of the resources with friendica also on the server lol That site looks insanely expensive monthly.
First of all, 99% of people don't have the technical expertise to self host Lemmy, and that's who we are talking about in this thread.
Secondly, there are very significant benefits to using a well established server versus self hosting. The most obvious perk is having a built-in community to interact with and learn from.
But more importantly, more established servers will already be subscribed to many of the major communities, making the task of finding and browsing remote communities that much easier. Consider this:
Your local version of c/science_memes only has ~200 posts and 1.2k comments. Also, many of the older posts didn't seem to federate the comments or upvotes. This is because your server only recently subscribed to that community, and federation doesn't occur retroactively.
The sh.itjust.works version of the community has 3.9k posts and 94k comments, because we have been subscribed since the community started.
The main version actually has 3.92k posts and 99.6k comments. Most of the missing comments on the SJW version are likely from lemmygrad and hexbear users, who are defederated by SJW but not by mander.xyz. This is also another major consideration about self hosting vs. joining a larger server: defederations. Some people will see predetermined defederations as a pro while others will consider it a con (also depending on which servers are defederated). The main thing is that people have options that work for them.
Funnily enough, the communick version is majorly fucked up, not sure why that is.
At this point I'm just getting curious, so I checked the lemmy.myserv.one version as well, and it's got an impressive 3.84k posts and 98.2k comments.
Might as well try it for c/greentext as well.
- Main community - 1.22k posts / 52.6k comments
- is.hardlywork.ing version - 501 posts / 901 comments
- communick.news version - 1.1k posts / 23k comments
- lemmy.myserv.one - 200 posts / 15 comments (I guess I never subscribed to that community on this account? Kinda weird)
- mander.xyz - 1.22k posts / 52.9k comments (not sure how it has more comments than the main version, someone should look into that)
So yeah, it's not quite as simple as you make it seem. Hopefully someday Lemmy will integrate the ability to federate communities retroactively as some kind of option. Because I think that was more of a design choice than anything, technically it should be possible to toggle a setting and get your instance to download all of the posts and comments from a remote community, even from before you subscribed.
And I feel like without having access to all of the old posts and comments that we have built up over the past couple years, content on Lemmy probably feels a lot more sparse for a new user. Personally, I have always enjoyed sorting by top posts of all time in various communities, both on reddit and now on Lemmy. Even if you've been subscribed to the community the whole time, you tend to miss out on some great posts if you only ever sort by new or hot.
I'm only now seeing that you are the same user, so obviously you can just browse older communities from lemm.ee and be fine. But it's still useful information to know.
And btw, I luckily have a free lifetime subscription to the communick Lemmy server because they did a promotion back in the day. I do pay them to host my Matrix account though. My original Matrix account got killed when the admin randomly decided to shut down his server, so I figured I'd go with a paid option.
I won't divulge the price since they no longer offer individual packages, but it's quite reasonable. If you compare their current pricing to what people spend on streaming services like Netflix, I think it's more than fair. $29 yearly for Mastodon, Lemmy, Matrix and Funkwhale access? I'd buy that as a gift for someone in a heartbeat if it would get them to start using the fediverse.
I gave up on the technical expertise part, thats why I use yunohost lol, and I defintiely went overkill with the 8core16gb for two apps that only im using, yeah its an issue you dont grab old posts, it shouldnt take up too much memory for text at least considering wikipedia can be downloaded for 58gb uncompressed
Is it really a "bad" experience?
A "bad" experience is something like applying for a job online, submitting your resume, then manually entering all the information that's already on your resume into a thousand little boxes. A "bad" experience is trying to unsubscribe from a service that relies on the pain of that unsubscribe process keeping people paying every month.
Having to choose a server is at most a speed bump. Is it a "bad" experience to choose an email provider?
If that mild speed bump is keeping people from joining, that's fine. If someone cared enough to make some kind of a GUI that hand-held people through the process of choosing a server, that's fine too.
IMO, if we're talking bad experiences, ads on Reddit that are designed to look like posts, that's a bad experience. Ads that are designed to look like comments, that's a bad experience. And, the feature coming soon of communities locked behind a paywall, that's a really bad experience.
I've tried to join lemmy several times since 2021 but I could succeed only a few weeks ago.
I don't get why new accounts need manual approval.
I originally joined KBin because I liked the interface better than lemmy.
When I joined lemmy.world I just picked it because it was the most populous.
I haven’t even given it a second thought about changing because I don’t know why I would. It seems pretty arbitrary which instance you join.
Why not https://fedia.io/ ? It uses Mbin, the successor of Kbin
At this point I am lacking motivation to change. Why bother switching now?
It's up to you, I was just giving you the option
I like the analogy that Lemmy is like an email provider. Many possible providers, one Internet. Maybe we could get more traction if Lemmy were promoted in a similar manner? Or even have email service like sdf.org?