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Hold on. Apologies for being out of the loop, but do people really bring sexual fetish stuff to a pride parade?
And if so, what does that have to do with LGBTQ+?
Imho there are two angles to this question:
- First, queer folks are more likely to be kinky. Since they had to figure out what clicks for them at least once, they tend to do it on multiple aspects of their identities.
- Secondly - and this one is more of a personal standpoint - I'd argue that kinks fall under the wider umbrella of queerness or GRSM (Gender Relational and Sexual Minorities which I find way better than an enumeration acronym).
I'd also advocate for including neurodivergences under the queer brand too for instance.
Also don't forget the historic aspect -- when queerness was viewed as sexually deviant and perverted, it was the kink community that stood by us. Just because we've evolved to be socially acceptable doesn't mean we should leave everyone else behind
What kind of a “community” exists around kink? Or do you just mean the superset of communities like furries, and whatever else is out there? What’s the line between those and more problematic sex clubs?
I felt the same way initially, just because I hadn't really been exposed to it prior, and had a lot of misgivings. I found Kat Blaque's video on the subject quite helpful just in giving context -- well worth a watch!
Define more problematic sex clubs
Jefferey Epstein didn’t kill himself.
Before he didn’t kill himself, he infamously ran some sex clubs.
These would be well-known examples representing a subset of what I would consider to be “problematic” sex clubs.
I would not want to be a part of a pride celebration where clubs like those have representation.
Pride is about throwing bricks at cops and celebrating our suppressed diversity, not the kinds of sex clubs that politicians go to. Pride is about tearing down hierarchies and problematic power dynamics, not fetishizing them. Or, at least, that’s my understanding of pride having never been to any sort of pride event. I know the history with stonewall and all of that, and that’s my picture of pride and what it should be.
The kinds of sex clubs that politicians go to are the only kinds of sex clubs of which I am aware, so I’m skeptical of sex clubs being represented at pride.
I don't know why it sticks in my head but I read an article many years ago written by a straight cis woman who kept on showing up to a gay male leather BDSM club and chatting up a storm. One night one of the guys there tells her off causing her to write an article about how they were anti-woman to her. And from there she derived a general principle that male homosexuals hated women.
It's like dude, there is nothing for you there, it's their space not your space, if you showed up to my D&D table each week commenting and not playing I might do the same eventually. Also you know it is BDSM you should expect people into that to not exactly be super polite at all times. It's quite literally a kink around inflicting consensual pain on each other, not exactly a grandma's quilting circle.
I think it sticks in my head because I felt like she was trying to provoke something, was successful at it, and now that she was hurt she must be right about her preconceived homophobia.
FetLife is a relatively respected kink social media platform. It's not about hooking up (though that certainly happens, just like on any online platform - hell, I knew people that later married that met in EQ). From my limited experience there, it's mostly about making everyone feel less ostracized. Of course, they have to have very explicit rules about consent, or that turns into a predator's playground - but again, that's true of any social media platform.
including neurodivergences under the queer brand too for instance.
Think you should ask them first, but no one ever asks the autistic anything
Unless it's Etymology Nerd, in which case the answer is "I made a creole of my bird and dolphin languages." and it's glorious.
Can recommend his videos, they are excellent.
I asked myself and then said yes. :p
Thanks for the answer. Although, I still don't really get it.
I've heard that the kink community has a rule that people shouldn't expose their fetishes to non-consenting strangers. Why on pride parades then? Isn't engaging in these sort of activities here kind of wrong, like how you can't just go out nude or have sex in public?
It really depends on where you are and what sort of Pride event it is. If it's a Pride march with lots of corporate sponsors, then you'll see very little kink, maybe someone in full rubber, but probably no jockstraps. If it's a ticketed gay village party, or a circuit party, you'll definitely see some more risque kink gear being worn. If you're at Folsom or in Berlin, there's whole parades dedicated to kink, but even the straight public know about that, so if they don't like it, they can avoid the area during those events.
And how do you feel about the marches or rather individuals in these marches that go to far? To be clear I'm not talking about the people who wear rubber suits.
Where is the widespread problem of kink in the streets? I’ve never heard of a huge kink problem at pride events other than pearl clutching mothers who object to queer people in public in general.
I wouldn't classify the behavior of these specific individuals as "kink"... , I wouldn't even classify them as necessarily apart of LGBTQ+ either. I'm not saying it's common either, I'm mearly ask how you feel about them. I'm referring to the specific cases of individuals who take the opportunity to put on displays of public nudity & indecent exposure outside the bonds of the law. And I'm not referring to Will Walters; butt cheeks is not nudity.
Where are you seeing a large number of kinky people causing real problems in public?
My point is that you seem to be worried about an imaginary issue that, at worst, is something that is isolated to specific pride events that are geared towards adult sexual expression. Just because it makes you uncomfortable or you don’t consider it LGBTQ doesn’t mean it needs to be changed.
Again I'm not fucking saying it's a common issue. Now you're just misunderstanding what I'm saying in bad faith.
Again I'm merely asking how you feel about these specific individuals who go to far, and in this instance beyond the bounds of "kink" during public marches.
But you keep fucking dodging the question with your irrelevant ass bullshit strawman argument, instead of actually answering my fucking question.My point is that you seem to be worried about an imaginary issue that
I'm not worried about shit, I'm asking for your personal opinion on these very specific cases to push the discourse into careful consideration of how such cases effect the causes pushing for social change.
Just because it makes you uncomfortable or you don’t consider it LGBTQ doesn’t mean it needs to be changed.
Not even close to what I said, again this is not about people celebrating kinks or have their tits and ass out, I do not give a shit about such things.
My personal opinion is that I don’t care about people displaying kinkwear within the bounds of the law, and I think it’s ok to bend the rules a little further than usual during a pride parade. I don’t think parades about sexual identity should cater to kids and families.
Unless you put a clear definition on “too far”, then that is my answer.
Here, I'll make it more clear to you by defining what is not too far first.
In 2023 a bunch of nude cyclists were present during the public Seattle Pride Parade, while they were fully naked, half covered, etc. Their behavior is very clearly artistic expression and not inappropriate, as they were wearing body paint and commiting to other artistic representations of nudity no different from a body paint artist that are also very public in Seattle, nor were they engaging in inappropriate behavior or attempting to induce sexual arousal. In the same vein, wearing a rubber suit can also very much fall into the same category.
Does that make it more clear?
The specific cases are those intentionally engaging in behavior that can't be defined as artistic expression and can deeply harm the overall movement, such as the rare cases of inappropriate touching/unwanted touching.
Imo, strict codes of conduct such as those used by Nudist organizations during their public events in other more lax countries should be used, not only to discourage the behavior but to also protect the integrity of the events and movements when such cases do occur. The mentioned Seattle Pride Parade for example had no official code of conduct, luckily no such case occured during this particular event.
Define too far.
Let me also ask you what you think about nude bike rides, where dozens, if not hundreds, of people cycle nude through a city. Is that too much for you?
I'm not OP, but just wanted to say, I perceive any nudity in public too far. Maybe it's cultural.
Having their genitalia out is too far. Butts and tits are not genitalia. What else is going too far is burning down a fucking Park.
Let me also ask you what you think about nude bike rides, where dozens, if not hundreds, of people cycle nude through a city. Is that too much for you?
Nope, that can easily be exempt as a form of artistic expression and doesn't fit into the type of actions I'm referring to. If you've seen the images it's very clearly artistic expression no different from the body paint artists that are also in Seattle.
What has a fire in a park got to do with what we're discussing?
Nudity at Pride is rare, can happen, but it's not exclusive to Pride. And also something that I think attitudes should change on. Nudity is not something that people should fear, nor should they be shamed if they are happy being nude.
Doesn't nudity reinforce lookism, and gives disadvantage to the people with invisible bodily defects? Let alone that some people do not want to see nudes.
The fire was started by individuals from a LGBTQ+ pride/racial injustice protest. I attended this march myself as well, it was primarily a racial injustice protest but a lot of individuals were wearing & celebrating pride stuff as well. The end result was many deciding to continue the protest at rec park, where then it was burned to the ground by unknown individuals. My question is entirely centered around individuals that go to far during these types of events, be it indecent exposure/genital nudity, or what law enforcement consider crimes in general, that's what I've been trying to get across but certain people are seemingly misinterpreting my question on purpose and dodging the question so they can insert their own bullshit argument that has nothing to do with the question at hand & putting words in my mouth I never said. The fire example is mearly mechanism to try to drive home this primary point rather than conducive to the specific topic. The entire point of the question is to draw out your personal logical reasoning and nuance of how you perceive these specific individuals, to induce a level of reflection, to allow deepening of understanding of your stance and further push the discussion into a level of interpersonal discourse. As It's a complex issue that requires careful consideration on a deeper case-by-case analysis & is important to discuss how such cases effect the causes pushing for social change and how theses causes can deal with them respective of the law and the rights of others, while still finding ways to make their voices heard and push for progress.
Nudity at Pride is rare, can happen, but it's not exclusive to Pride. And also something that I think attitudes should change on. Nudity is not something that people should fear, nor should they be shamed if they are happy being nude.
Thank you for actually answering the question instead of strawman-ing like a certain someone else. I can agree to a degree. Is there a degree of nudity that you'd draw the line at? Are there cases of, say artistic expression that you'd say would get an exemption to that line?
P.s. I'm not the one who down voted your reply, I appreciate your reply as you are the only one who actually put thought into answering the question.
This is my personal opinion and it might not reflect the wider community's. I'm not even giving a straight answer, just some points to think about ^^
First and foremost Pride isn't a singular event. Some are more celebratory and family friendly. But imho it's original purpose is a protest and protests aren't subject to the same rules as other places and times. e.g. you don't tend to shout in the street everyday.
Secondly this rule as an absolute doesn't make a lot of sense. Even without critiquing the wider society's rules a choker isn't the same as a full puppy outfit. (and tbf I don't see the issue with pups, it's just dress up ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
Lastly, I personally find that view kinda rooted in puritanism. Why should it be shameful in the first place? It kinda has "don't ask don't tell" vibes.
Lastly, how do you precisely define what's a kink and what's not?
I recommended this to someone else in the thread too, but I found Kat Blaque's video really helpful as an explanation, because if you're not familiar with the subculture the reasoning can be quite confusing.
I've yet to see a Pride event that didn't have it, even in relatively conservative cities like Houston.
And if so, what does that have to do with LGBTQ+?
What does dressing up as an Astronaut have to do with All Hallow's Eve? It's a big party and people are expressing themselves. You don't have to take it farther than that.