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If this is what a fake libertarian is, there's no such thing as a real one. This is every single libertarian I've ever conversed with.
You need to find yourself some Left-Libertarians.
You're usually looking for some type of Georgists or some flavor of small-scale Social/Communist Anarchy. Most of them are way more able to grok the concepts of things like "natural monopolies" or "Tragedy of the Commons" and other fun market failure states. They tend to focus more on the existence of the market itself as a tool for creating competition that drives innovation and efficiency while giving less lip service to the idea that just because you accumulated a bunch of capital from an idea that's its a good idea.
If I scam a bunch of people, I've gathered a bunch of capital, but that doesn't mean I've actually produced anything of value for anyone. If I refined chemicals in my house and dumped all the waste in my neighbor's pool, I'm not actually competing in an even market, because I've burdened my neighbor with the cost of waste remediation while I get to keep all the profit.
Yea but my neihbor is a POS.
I don't understand your point. Would you mind elaborating?
You’re usually looking for some type of Georgists
Georgism is actually a very interesting political philosophy. I hadn't heard of it before you mentioned it in your comment. Thank you for sharing!
“natural monopolies” or “Tragedy of the Commons”
These are, indeed, two very important, and critical issues. When one is advocating for libertarianism, capitalism, and the like, they mustn't be ignored.
If I refined chemicals in my house and dumped all the waste in my neighbor’s pool, I’m not actually competing in an even market, because I’ve burdened my neighbor with the cost of waste remediation while I get to keep all the profit.
This point doesn't actually hold much, if any, ground, as it is fundamentally at odds with the philosophy of libertariansim. Libertarianism is about equal freedom of the individual, yes, but that does not grant one the right to burden other's with un-consented cost.
When I considered myself libertarian, I was not a fan of police brutality, pro LGBTQ rights, more open border, and legalized drugs. I still hold all of those views but have gotten a lot more to the left from am economics standpoint. A lot of that is die to my econ degree.
That said, post 2016 I definitely noticed a ton of faux libertarians who were very defensive of Trump. If you voted for Trump, I don't think you can consider yourself libertarian. I think I recall hearing that the whacko New Hampshire libertarians basically took over the party. Those guys are a bunch of racist fascists.
If you voted for Trump, I don’t think you can consider yourself libertarian.
I wouldn't go so far as to draw that line at voting, as one could certainly be voting strategically -- it's possible that they don't agree with many, if any, of Trump's policies, but they were of the belief that voting for Trump would push policy in a direction that would be in their interest -- this is, of course, a symptom of FPTP, and it could be possibly solved with a ranked ballot. That being said, I do completely agree that if one is a vehement supporter of Trump, and his policies in a similar fassion to the usual MAGA group, then they cannot call themselves a libertarian in good concience -- there are many policies of, and actions by Trump that are very un-libertarian.
This means you have never interacted with a libertarian then, just a ashamed conservative/republican wanting to be labeled something else.
Everyone knows the True Libertarians hang out in Scotland. With the True Scotts.
Generally I lean libertarian in terms of pure individual choice. Worship no gods or a million, be single or marry 20 people at once, put whatever substance you want in your own body, kneel for the flag or shed a tear, yes I will use your pronouns.
Every man a king, that's my philosophy.
The rest of the stuff yeah. I want food stamp programs, I want a secular neutral state, I want antidiscrimination laws, I dont support a company dumping pollution on us.
You just described being a leftist. Why are libertarians so afraid of being put on the progressive left? You are not a libertarian lmao
For the sake of clarity in this conversation, would you mind defining "leftist"? It is rather ambiguous.
I was pretty clear in what I believe LMAO
yes, and it's not libertarianism.
a political philosophy that advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens.
food stamps, anti-discrimination laws and anti-pollution laws are all a big fucking no-no for libertarians.
food stamps
Food stamps are not mutually exclusive with libertarianism on the whole. Libertarianism, very generally, can be described as encompassing the idea of maximising equal individual liberty, while ensuring that one cannot impart costs on another without their consent, or proper compensation for damages. Food stamps are more of a socialist view which puts it in the category of, what is commonly referred to as, "left-libertarianism".
anti-discrimination laws
Correct, this would be incompatible with libertarianism -- one has the right to choose with whom they associate, and what they say.
anti-pollution laws
This is incorrect. One cannot impart costs on another without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.
This is incorrect. One cannot impart costs on another without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.
who is gonna enforce that? lol
This is generally referred to as "Tort Law", and it is normally handled by the civil courts.
courts? you mean a body of a government?
can't have that, also once the court has done it's thing, who's gonna enforce what the court said? because police is dirty socialism and part of the government.
Libertarianism is not opposed to the justice system -- in fact, it actually requires it -- I point you to the model referred to as a Nightwatchman State. I would also remind you that Libertarianism is not equivelant to Anarchism.
Ok it helps when you read what I wrote not what you want me to have written.
For the individual I want as much freedom as we can give them. Everything above that I want regulated and I want welfare programs.
For the individual I want as much freedom as we can give them. Everything above that I want regulated and I want welfare programs.
Okay, so you are a leftist, like me. In fact, you might just be a socialist, or even a communist.
Those are very broad categories to haphazardly throw around.
My economic beliefs are: if it works do it, if it doesn't do not. I don't trust ideology and I don't trust economists. Food Stamps work in that people don't generally starve anymore, the free market works for video games in that people generally can buymore than they would ever hope to play.
Only do things that work.
I want antidiscrimination laws
For the sake of clarity, what do you specifically mean by this?
I dont support a company dumping pollution on us.
This is actually not a libertarian belief. It is of the libertarian philosophy that one cannot impose a cost on others without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.
Drugs actually worsen the quality of life for everyone. You just need to go to some streets in San Francisco to know it
Dont believe you and I wouldn't care if it were true. I am not a utilitarian.
As for San Francisco, have you considered the radical idea of building more housing for greater housing needs?
So not wanting to have quite literally zombies roaming the streets is being utilitarian?
Can I have a turn beating up that strawman when you are done with him?
Sorry I don't click random YouTube links.
No, it's not a rickroll
No, what is bad is how people who use drugs are treated like criminals and thrown in jail. People don't suddenly decide they want to be addicted to crack or something.. But you know.. Curiosity kills the cat. These people need help, not jail time. In countries where drugs have been decriminalized, there's very little usage of hard drugs. Iirc, when users are spotted, they are offered treatment instead of a jail sentence.
Decriminalization works and it has been proven.. Yet there are still so many countries that refuse to take the step
what is bad is how people who use drugs are treated like criminals and thrown in jail
Agreed.
Consumers get therapy, dealers get jail
When the fuck did I say "treat drug addicts like criminals"?
dealers get jail
Then we arrest a 17 year old POC male because of a dime bag was calculated using police math to be 1 billion dollars street value and clearly dealer level.
And "therapy" turns out to be taxpayer funded rehab places where people pet fucking horses to get over their Marijuana "addiction" and atheists are forced to pray.
I went to state funded rehab outa jail... They were putting people with multiple clean years under belt on suboxone. 🙄 while pushing hard on AA, which does come across as a religious cult to me, while the principals are mostly sound, the people sent into these places to proselytize, don't have anything other than a Christian god to project into a "higher power"...instead of it being you and the people and world around you.
What's the point of mentioning the accused's race? You fucking Americans are tiring with that shit
Because the war on drugs disproportionately impacts certain races over others. I mention race because race is relevant to the issue.
But yeah thanks for stereotyping in a comment telling at me for stereotyping. I enjoy seeing my point made.
Unless you all forget the skin colour of the person next to you, your country will stay in the same shitty situation.
I don't believe that the solution is ignoring rather obvious physical differences, what I think would make a difference is the understanding that such differences are no indication of a person's character.
Yes I often tell people that we can better solve problems by pretending that they do not exist.
Instead of admitting that racism does exist and policies have to be crafted for the very imperfect world that we have now. We should go ahead with laws that assume perfect people act perfectly. Because if we assume this the power of wishful thinking will render it so.
OP wasn't insinuating that you were saying drug addicts are criminals. How I interepereted what they said was that what you were describing wasn't bad in OP's opinion, and what actually was bad was that drug addicts are treated as criminals.
This is a strawman argument. I don't believe that OP was arguing that drugs increased anyone's quality of life, they were instaead arguing, and rightly so, that access to drugs is a in line with the libertarian philosophy.
How many have you talked to? I'm guessing the root cause is your sample size is too small.
I can confirm the same.
Yeah, OP's argument is founded on a logical fallacy -- it is called a Faulty Generalization.
I've spoken to many libertarians over the years, not one is in support of total decriminalization of all drugs.
Hello! Nice to meet you. I support total decriminalization of all drugs. What a human being does with their own body is their own business only. Unless the human is a child who still needs guidance in making those decisions before they have matured enough to do so on their own. In that case the parents should guide them to make safer decisions until adulthood.
Now you have.
Then I would argue that they cannot, in good concience, call themselves libertarians.
Because that's absolutely unhinged
By decriminalizing at a minimum we can get people out of the shadows of crime and maybe into treatment, instead we pay for them to rot in prison because drugs are bad.
Then what if they were just kept illegal, dealers get harsh sentences and consumers get treatment?
Because under current laws, consumers that intend to distribute to support the habit, are treated as if they're producers.
Current laws where? America is not everywhere
Very few countries treat small-time dealers as victims of their vices. I agree that more drugs is bad, but the "war on drugs" didn't work anywhere. Time to try another approach.
Small-time dealers are dealers after all. They're not victims, they're just fuel for this vicious cycle that is drug abuse
This is a faulty generalization.
Commenting on a 2 month old comment. Sure got me.
The age of the post should protect your statements from future criticism...?