English breaks my brain... How is some languages end in -an, but others end in -ese, -ish, etc... [Open Discussion Thread on Languages and their Quirks]
English breaks my brain... How is some languages end in -an, but others end in -ese, -ish, etc... [Open Discussion Thread on Languages and their Quirks]
I mean:
English
Russian
French? (how did this happen? France --> French?!?)
Chinese
And someone from Afghanistan is an Afghan? How did the word get shorter not longer? 🤔
Also, why is a person from India called an Indian, but the language is called Hindi? This breaks my brain...
Philippines --> Filipino? They just saw the "Ph" and decided to use an "F"? 🤔
Okay idk how language even works anymore...
[This is an open discusssion thread on languages and their quirks...]
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I've always wondered how we got Japan for a place that calls itself Nippon.
Tbf, I've looked it up a few times and forgotten, so I guess I don't feel that strongly about it.
For anyone else wondering, according to the wiki: “The name "Japan" is based on Min or Wu Chinese pronunciations of 日本 (pronounced a bit like JOO-pun)* and was introduced to European languages through early trade.”
*parentheses mine.
Min and Wu are wildly different. Is there pronunciation similar in this case?
I think that's why it was "Min or Wu" there.
I can read, that’s why I’m asking this question!
Thanks for the sass
English likely got the name from Portuguese, "Japão" *[ʒä'pɐ̃ŋ] (see note). I don't think that it's from Dutch "Japan" because otherwise the name would end as "Yapan", as Dutch uses a clear [j] ("y") sound.
In turn Portuguese got it from either Malay or some Chinese language. I think that it's from Cantonese 日本 jat⁶ bun² [jɐt˨ puːn˧˥]. Portuguese has this historical tendency to transform [j] into [ʒ] (the "g" in "genre"), and to mess with any sort of nasal ending.
The name in Chinese languages can be analysed as meaning simply "Sun origin". Because it's to the east of China.
In turn, there are a few ways to refer to Japan in Japanese:
- 日本 / Nihon - it's a cognate of that Cantonese jat⁶ bun². Except that it uses the Japanese rendering of Wu Chinese words.
- 日本 / Nippon - same as above, with a slightly more conservative pronunciation (Japanese converted a lot of [p] into [h]).
- 大和 / Yamato - it's metaphorically referring to the whole (Japan) by one of its part (the Yamato province, modern Nara).
- 日の本の国 / Hinomoto-no-Kuni - poetic and dated name. 日/hi = Sun, 本/moto = origin, 国/kuni = land, の = an adposition**. So it also means "land of the origin of the Sun". The big difference here is that all words used are inherited from Old Japanese, so there's no Chinese borrowing involved.
*note: that [ŋ] is reconstructed for around 1500 or so (Nanban trade times), given the word was also spelled Japam back then. A more typical contemporary pronunciation would be more like [ʒä'pɜ̃ʊ̯].
**the best way I know to explain Japanese の/no is that it works like a reversed English "of": in English you'd say "origin of Sun", in Japanese you'd say "Sun no origin" (hi no moto = 日の本). I only remember this because of Boku no Hero Academia, because "boku no" = "of I" (my).
Thanks for the explanation. So Japan comes from Portuguese via a Chinese language?
The opposite, it ultimately comes from a Chinese language via Portuguese.
The way I always remembered の is that it’s much like
’sin English. In other words 日の本 would be“sun’s origin.”At first I tried to remember it like a reversed Spanish
debut that didn’t work because I got it confused with で.
The Dutch you can blame the Dutch.
I may be conflating, Japan and China. Whoops
I mean... similarly: How did we get "China" from ZhongGuo? 🤔
We didn’t. 中國likely became the most common name with 中華民國（present day commonly known as Taiwan). What you now know as China is 中華人民共和國, so 中國 carries on. During dynasty periods that was not the common name.
China comes from sina/sino. I don’t remember where this comes from. Sanskrit?
China comes from sina/sino. I don’t remember where this comes from. Sanskrit?
Odds are that both were independently borrowed from Sanskrit चीन / Cīna:
- China: Sanskrit, then Persian, Portuguese, English. By then Portuguese likely still had the [tʃ] "tch" sound.
- Sina: Sanskrit, then Persian, Arabic, Greek, Latin, English. Arabic converted Sanskrit [tɕ] into [sˤ], then Greek into [s].
Note: dunno in English but at least in Latin "Sina" (often Sinae, the plural) refers specifically to southern China. The north is typically called Serica (roughly "of the silk").
In Arabic it's "Seen" (صين) with a Saad (ص) [sˤ]. It came from Persian "چین" (Cheen). Which came from Sanskrit.
My bad, and thanks for the info! I'll correct my comment, I kind of rushed checking the etymologies.
Uh... 中国(Zhongguo) was first used in the Western Zhou period, over 3000 years ago. Other words like 诸夏(Zhuxia), 诸华 (Zhuhua), 天下 (Tianxia), 华夏 (Huaxia), 神州 (Shenzhou), 九州 (Jiuzhou), and assorted combinations or variations of these were used off and on over the time as well. (None of which sound like "China" naturally.) 大清国 (Daqing Guo) was used the Qing before they were overthrown and the Republic, and later the People's Republic, took the country over again.
It wasn’t common though. Like everyone calls it 中國 now. Not so back then. China has fragmented and reunited many times
It was pretty common in the Zhou Dynastic period, being the official name and all that. That's 789 years. I think we can consider it firmly established usage from that, no?
I can concede that
Wikipedia says from Portuguese, through Persian, back to Sanskrit, being the grand daddy of English, calling it "cina", and/or it has to do with Qin Dynasty that unified China.
Probably better than whatever bullshit they would have gotten from Zhongguo if "Peking" was as good as they could do with "Beijing"
back to Sanskrit, being the grand daddy of English
Sanskrit is more like English's uncle than granddaddy: English is from Proto-Germanic, and both Proto-Germanic and Sanskrit are from Proto-Indo-European.
Or that soy beans are actually named after the sauce, since English didn't have a word for the bean yet.
And why "China" instead of "Zhongguo" or "Zhonghua" or any number of words, none of which sound like "China".
I'm pretty sure it came from the Portuguese word for tea (chá).