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Asklemmy @lemmy.ml lorty @lemmy.ml

What discussion you know you are on the wrong side of?

Maybe you haven't been convinced by a good enough argument. Maybe you just don't want to admit you are wrong. Or maybe the chaos is the objective, but what are you knowingly on the wrong side of?

In my case: I don't think any games are obliged to offer an easy mode. If developers want to tailor a specific experience, they don't have to dilute it with easier or harder modes that aren't actually interesting and/or anything more than poorly done numbers adjustments. BUT I also know that for the people that need and want them, it helps a LOT. But I can't really accept making the game worse so that some people get to play it. They wouldn't actually be playing the same game after all...

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  • Pronouns. I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it's super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way, but I find it unreasonable to demand being referred to something outside of the gender binary, simply because that's the way language works.

    I am aware that English has used "they" for a person of unknown gender for ages, but for one, I don't think it's something that you should demand people call you when they actually know your gender, but also I really hate that this is making its way into other languages like my own, that has never had this convention. Inventing entirely new pronouns is just ridiculous, I have a hard enough time to remember your name.

    I am also aware that language evolves, but this is not evolution, it's forced, and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I'm as much in my right to resist it if I don't like it.

    People are super passionate about this though and in fifty years I'm sure I'll be seen as a fossil for not getting with the times now - in fact I'm sure certain people see me like this now.

    • Using someone's preferred pronouns is a sign of mutual respect, your refusal to do so is a sign of disrespect to those around you. It's really that simple, bud.

      Do you call people Johnny when they tell you their name is John? It's literally the same thing, they've explained how they'd like to be addressed, and deviating from that uninvited is just rude.

      I get that they matter a lot to some people, and of course it's super annoying (if not worse) to be referred to in the wrong way

      It's dehumanizing and disrespectful, it's not annoying. I've had family members refuse to use an individual's pronouns, but in a heartbeat correct themselves for referring to a pet by the wrong pronoun. I've had people go out of their way to call me "man, guy, dude, bruh" when I'm fem presenting, and I'm the only woman they're speaking to that way while I get the "I talk like that with everyone, bruh," excuse.

      and if one group of people can try to force a change they prefer, I'm as much in my right to resist it if I don't like it.

      Correct, but then you don't get to complain, like you are, that people get upset with you about it. You're not free from the consequences of those around you simply because you have the right to feel differently on something like basic human respect for your fellow people.

      I don't get to complain that no one wants to have dinner with me just because they don't like me taking food off their plates, even though I don't agree with that societal norm.

      • There's a guy on here with great opinions and I like to hear him talk, but he refers to himself in the third person all the time and it makes it hard for me to take him seriously. It can be a real drag on the conversation to suddenly be conscious of the pronoun of an individual, when you just want to speak to them like an equal.

        • I don't have pronouns, you can only call me by my name, Shadow the Headgehog!

        • I know who you're talking about, drag, drag has called me a racist, Trump supporting fascist who wants drag and all of drags friends dead because I had the audacity to criticize Harris and the DNC. Drag backed off that when I pointed out to drag that I'm a trans veteran who voted for Harris.

          I've never had difficulty understanding drag, and as much as I think drag is full of hot air, I respect drag enough as a fellow human to refer to drag in drag's preferred way. Drag is using the third person, this has been a trope in popular media for years and no one has complained about it.

          Did y'all have a hard time relating to and understanding The Boulder in Avatar the Last Airbender? He refers to himself as "The Boulder" instead of his pronouns, where's the uproar around that?

          Let's take it to real life: I googled it, pro wrestlers The Rock, The Big Guy, Santina Marella, Kanyon, and Stone Cold Steve Austin all regularly used the third person to refer to themselves. They used other pronouns as well, I'm not denying that, but you all act like this is some completely unheard of new thing that only these woke leftists are doing.

          It's respect, full stop. It's the equivalent of someone saying their name is Rajesh and you say, "Eh, Steve is easier, I'm used to the name Steve, I can't pronounce whatever you just said so the only way we're equals is if I can just call you Steve." That's insane, y'all need to stop making excuses as to why showing respect to another individual is sooooooo hard.

          And FYI, in writing this, I only had to go back and make three changes where I used an improper pronoun in when referring to drag. Again, if I can show basic respect to someone who called me a fascist nazi, why can't y'all do it for your friends, family, and coworkers? It's not hard, and I'm 30, so it's not like I was brought up with zhe/zher/zhers and all this other stuff either my entire childhood, I didn't learn what transgender was until I was in the Navy.

          Edit: Drag told me I insulted drag and lied to Lemmy by defending drag here, so I've crossed it out and will let drag defend drag's pronouns alone. Drag doesn't want my help because, in drag's own words, I'm a Nazi who purposefully misgendered drag and only wrote the above to insult and hurt drag.

          Yet refuses to apologize for falsely calling me a Nazi:

      • Is "dude" actually still considered gendered? I literally call everyone dude

      • We're still in the growing pains version of it, though, where there are far too many people taking advantage of a legitimate position just for the attention. This isn't unique to the gender conversation, but it definitely suffers from it.

        Another issue is that there is a component of needing to be vocal and firm or no one will take you seriously, but it's a fine line between that and being obnoxious and over-asking....reminding someone who wants to be considerate is good, being offended at someone intentionally mis-labeling may be necessary, but being offended by honest mistakes or berating someone for not realizing zhe or zher or some newly defined label was a thing definitely hurts the cause.

        • We're still in the growing pains version of it, though, where there are far too many people taking advantage of a legitimate position just for the attention.

          I would argue "who cares?" And please, explain to me how many "far too many" is? Because the trans population makes up under 1% of the US population, so I'm really trying to wrap my head around <1% is "far too many" of anything.

          This is just excuses, I'm sorry. I get "zhe/zher/zhers" is awkward to see, but watch this: "Debra is amazing, have you had zher apple pie?"

          Phew, nearly suffered an aneurysm on that one. 🙄

          Another issue is that there is a component of needing to be vocal and firm or no one will take you seriously, but it's a fine line between that and being obnoxious and over-asking....reminding someone who wants to be considerate is good, being offended at someone intentionally mis-labeling may be necessary, but being offended by honest mistakes or berating someone for not realizing zhe or zher or some newly defined label was a thing definitely hurts the cause.

          First, your last line is bullshit, it's the same logic that's been used for every single oppressed group asking for basic respect from their oppressors.

          When women standing up against sexual harassment really started to gain national attention, the news anchors made the exact same arguments you're making now. "Oh, it's just a man being friendly! Now men won't want to hire women because they'll be sued! We've behaved this way for decades and now it's a problem? God, Debbie is such a cunt for reporting me for rubbing her shoulders, I was just trying to be nice!"

          When women reported it, it was often, "They're just looking for a payout/attention! Why didn't they bring this up for the last X amount of time?! Why do women have to be so rude about it?!"

          When gay marriage was being fought for, what did we hear? "Oh, can't they keep that behind closed doors? It just makes me uncomfortable, I don't think the children should see that! It's always been Adam and Eve for me, I'm 40 years old, how am I supposed to learn to use the word "partner" instead of "husband/wife"?!"

          Notice how it's always the oppressed who are asking for too much, always? Always, it's always the oppressed asking for too much. But when they say, "Hey, society, can you do XYZ to show me some basic dignity and respect?" what are we met with?

          "We're still in the growing pains, people are taking advantage, we need to be patient, you need to know your place and when it's ok to speak up, but make sure you know the correct amount to speak up, otherwise they have the right to just not respect you."

          For fucking words, that's what y'all are doubling down on, something that costs you no money or effort beyond treating someone like a person, and respecting their reasonable request. They're not asking for you to paint their face from memory, or have their star-chart memorized and they yell at you for not knowing that Mercury was in retrograde, or chastising you for not knowing the exact date and time they were born.

          If they've introduced themselves and their pronouns, and you can't be bothered to respect that, you're just a dick at best and transphobic at worst. It's really that simple, it's a sign of respect, and any excuse for why you can't use words is just an excuse to disrespect those you don't feel deserve it. And that's an internal issue the individual needs to get over, but the LGBTQ+ community doesn't need to coddle a society that can't be bothered to show them the respect of using proper pronouns.

          • You seem to be primed to take everything as bad faith almost intentionally. Not understanding that arguments have two sides is what keeps conversations from happening, not what settled them. Yes, it is not a huge burden to remember someone's pronoun, but people have a lot on their mind and something that has been one way for the majority of most people's lives is absolutely going to take some time 'not to get wrong' even for people who are honestly trying, yet you act as though it's rude not to suddenly find it natural. If i told you I'd find it rude not to remember everyone's favorite color, would you jump to making an effort to learn everyone's favorite color? Now, was your first instinct when reading that example an indignant response that it was insensitive because 'favorite color' isn't as identifying as a person's gender?

            I understand that many people discount a person's gender or sexual preference, or even sexual abuse in order to minimize it, use examples of people taking advantage of it, or lying about it in order to dismiss the larger group of people who have real claims and preferences and experiences.... But those things come from a real place too, and trying to bully or shame people for it is the same thing you accuse others of.

            Honestly this conversation has gotten far too broad to even address all the differences of opinion we have, but if there's one thing we might be able to agree on is that people don't like being minimized, whether it's about their gender, or if it's their struggle with understanding sometimes struggle with gender. If you insist on insisting that the only valid argument is that everyone takes it as seriously as you do, you're accomplishing a net negative for the cause.

            • Yes, it is not a huge burden to remember someone's pronoun,

              Then stop arguing otherwise. Stop making excuses. We get it, no one is going to get it the first time, no one is going to remember everything.

              By your logic, fascists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can't have a discussion about fascism. Racists deserve a seat at the table because otherwise we can't see their point of view. White supremacists need a seat at the table because otherwise we'd only hear from those they hate.

              But those things come from a real place too, and trying to bully or shame people for it is the same thing you accuse others of.

              So you're just, again, victim blaming and refusing to show any examples of this supposed attention seeking. You got anything beyond a handful of cases over the decades?

              You're right, the amount of respect a person receives should be based on the gender pronouns they use and the overwhelming inconvenience they apparently place on the general population. Yep, respect for a human being should be a debate.

              When are you going to blame trans people for Harris losing like the rest of the liberal base seems ready to? I mean, we have to engage with that point of you, right, we have to tolerate the intolerant, right?

              Right.

              • That's where you lose the argument entirely. We don't have to tolerate the intolerant.... Nothing i said suggests that outside of your insistence on being offended. You don't tolerate the worst examples of the other side, but you at least take a breath to try to understand the well intentioned members who don't see things your way.

                Except for the most extreme cases you can come up with, nothing is black and white, everything is grey, and your insistence that i must be a bad guy because i challenge anything makes you not terribly worth engaging.

                Except for those baiting the conversation, everyone has reasons for feeling how they do on a topic, even if it's just defaulting to it because of their social circle, but you are not a good champion of the cause of all you can come up with is mocking straw men arguments and feigning indignance.

                • Except for the most extreme cases you can come up with, nothing is black and white, everything is grey, and your insistence that i must be a bad guy because i challenge anything makes you not terribly worth engaging.

                  I'm still waiting for evidence of all of these numerous cases of people using pronouns for attention, and all these people making up sexual assault claims. You got any?

                  Since I've clearly lost the argument entirely (sure, bud, sure), you clearly must have a plethora of evidence and examples that actually support your claim.

                  This entire comment is attacking me, and nothing that I actually said, while using generalizations to paint this picture that I don't understand unless I can use extremely specific examples.

                  What part of "This entire debate is a debate about respect" do you not understand, and what argument is there to be had about that? I'd love to hear it, I'd love for you to actually engage with anything I've said beyond "yOu HaVe To UnDeRsTaNd ThEiR pOiNt Of ViEw."

                  I already covered the grey areas, if you actually what I wrote, you're just being willfully ignorant about it. "No one should be yelled at for a genuine mistake, but eventually it's not a mistake and you need to grow." Wow, yeah, whole lot of grey area in that one too, PHEW, we're demanding the world.

                  but you are not a good champion of the cause of all you can come up with is mocking straw men arguments and feigning indignance.

                  I asked you for statistical evidence to back up your claims and you've provided none, so I've had to argue your own ridiculous arguments that fell apart under the most basic scrutiny. Sorry you have a terrible take on this? That's my fault too, that's me mocking straw men arguments (so you're admitting that your arguments are all bad faith, straw men arguments, glad to hear it) and feigning indignance?

                  I'm not feigning anything, once again, using preferred pronouns is basic respect to another human being, and while no one should be offended by genuine mistakes, your continued defense of not showing trans people respect if their pronouns aren't up to your standard, is transphobic.

                  So, I apologize if someone who refuses to provide any evidence to back up their claims that there are so very many instances of people making up pronouns, or any instance of how someone requesting certain pronouns creates such an undo burden on the rest of society, isn't worth me engaging with further.

                  Keep making excuses for why you have it so much worse than the marginalized group who's request for respect is apparently a fucking debate.

                  Absolute clown.

    • I know a few trans or nonbinary folks. They either go by he, she, or they. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't. Then again I live in a weird progressive rural community.

      But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.

      • But if someone asks me to refer to them a particular way, sure what not? It means more to them than it means to me.

        And it costs you nothing. :)

        • Until you're that rural person dropped into a convention center with people wearing name tags with their preferred pronoun and almost no understanding of how to actually use those pronouns appropriately.

          For the most part, it's amazing how seldom pronouns actually get used in referring to any specific person. Even if Bob uses he/she/they relatively often, the he/she/they being referred to is a specific person and the number of times Bob uses the word 'she' when referring to Sally is related entirely to how often Bob talks about Sally, specifically with other people. That might literally be never/once a year/once in his lifetime/etc.

          If the vast majority of the time Bob talks about other people, they've not mentioned any preference, it's understandable if he struggles when the need comes up, mid conversation, to substitute a 'they/zhe/xer' where he has only every used he/she (they still sounds plural to most people), and to remember off the top of your head a pronoun you've only seen on a name tag one time, roughly amounts to remembering everyone's name and their hometown. Of course the impact is lessened by the fact that you will rarely have to refer to some specific person in third person when you don't even remember their name, and in that case 'they' is kind of a fallback anyway.

          Perhaps an undesirable outcome is that if the pronoun is a hurdle to overcome, it's easier for Bob just not to bring Sally up at all, a possibly unfortunate result because it might have been an interesting conversation that is now simply avoided.

          • Okay, first of all, if you counted how many pronouns you use, per day, it would likely surprise you. Second, it once again, costs you nothing to use someone's pronouns after they've been identified to you. If you're arguing "it's not fair to be yelled at for something you aren't aware of" then that's completely reasonable.

            If your argument is "I don't want to be bothered learning 3 new words in a language I've spoken my entire life," then I have no sympathy for you, and you're at best just someone who's disrespectful to those they (WOW I used they as a singular, THAT was hard, cost me $400 to write that just now) don't feel deserve respect. It's that simple.

            If someone introduces themselves as Jennifer, and you immediately start calling them Jen/Jenny/Etc, and they ask tell you it's Jennifer, do you double down because, well, Jen is just easier, Jen is just easier, I'll just stop bringing up Jen.

            Perhaps an undesirable outcome is that if the pronoun is a hurdle to overcome, it's easier for Bob just not to bring Sally up at all, a possibly unfortunate result because it might have been an interesting conversation that is now simply avoided.

            And then you sit there, while explaining this to me, and act like what you're describing isn't blatant discrimination. The exact same "LoGiC" that has been used to discriminate against "difficult women," y'know, the ones that were sexually harassed in the workplace for decades.

            How did the News react to women standing up against harassment and discrimination in the workplace? Oh, that's right, they said things like, "Well, now men aren't going to promote women into managerial positions because they'll be afraid of being sued! Now men can't even have conversations with their coworkers without fear of reprimand! Won't anyone think of how the poor men feel?!"

            Notice a pattern? It's always the oppressed asking too much, because they don't understand the undo burden of checks notes for this discussion not harassing women and, wow, big ask here, using the names and preferred pronouns of your coworkers.

            You're right, I didn't think how hard that must be on the average person, completely unreasonable ask on the part of the LGBTQ+ community, next they'll want equal rights under the law! Disgusting. 🙄

            • Just a guess here, but are you that desperate to get offended at something that you have to double down on everything you find? Where in my comment did you find an opening for someone politely correcting a preferred name, to turn it into a snarky taking over the person.

              I fully understand that it isn't hard to use gender neutral or specific pronouns, and that they comfortably fits within many sentences, but you seem to be insisting that that there are no circumstances where someone might struggle... Can you really think of no insurance where they sounds at least ambiguous, like when it's unclear if you are talking about a specific person or a group of people, and then stumbling trying to correct, then wonder if you should correct, maybe that's offensive.... Just because you use a simple example doesn't justify the snark surrounding how others don't have to pay to do it.

              Just because people in the past (and present) have overreached or minimized groups doesn't mean no one can have a valid thought in that direction. You may want to dismiss or ignore those that take advantage of the gender topic purely for the attention, or lie about sexual abuse for revenge or money, but that doesn't make it disappear. Understanding that the bad apples don't invalidate the group is fair, but you're using the vocal objections as false flags just as much as the media used the false arguments as reasons to minimize the groups themselves.

              • Just a guess here, but are you that desperate to get offended at something that you have to double down on everything you find?

                No, I'm more disappointed that those on Lemmy, a supposed left-leaning forum, are ok with trying to justify not using preferred pronouns.

                And I'm offended because your entire comment reeked of "if you defend your gender pronouns, some hick who can't be bothered to read the name tag in front if them and gets so easily offended for being politely corrected a few times during a conversation, we deserve the right to discriminate against you." That's literally your last paragraph, so maybe go read what you actually wrote and are defending before getting upset about someone calling you out on it, whether or not you're ready to recognize it internally.

                Where in my comment did you find an opening for someone politely correcting a preferred name, to turn it into a snarky taking over the person.

                I've never once said people can't make mistakes, but this complete "well it's difficult and ignorance is always an excuse" that all of you seem to be conveying is ridiculous. And it's absolutely a taking over of a person: pronouns are part of how a person identifies, akin to their name. Your example used a convention full of people wearing name tags that had their names and their pronouns on them. So, you can't read? You can't listen and hope you hear someone use the pronoun in a sentence? You can't go, "Hm, lemme do a quick Google and see how people use zhe/zher in a sentence."

                Again, that would be like saying, "I can't pronounce Rajesh, even though you've politely corrected me several times, but this time you got upset so now I'm either calling you Steve or potentially just never bringing you up again." That was your entire comment, "This is too difficult for some people, so they don't have to ever learn."

                Nor have I ever said that trans folks are justified in overreactions to people making genuine mistakes, but the attitude in this thread seems to be "it's ok to not take them seriously or dismiss them," which isn't ok.

                We can argue the minutiae of very specific situations where it is or isn't justified, but overall, I don't see a situation where there should be confusion around "they." If you're having a conversation with or about someone, you likely understand the context around the conversation and should, without much difficulty, be able to follow and understand who "they" is referring to in regards to being a singular or plural pronoun. Especially if you're at a convention, assuming business/professional since you mentioned name tags, you should be smart enough to figure it out quick enough.

                If you're reading and can't understand "they," you've either missed context or the author has failed to adequately define who "they" is in that instance. In 2024, I imagine you can look it up for a book, or maybe ask the person in the conversation to clarify if you're not sure. It's not hard, it's laziness on the part of those who "just can't get with the times."

                You may want to dismiss or ignore those that take advantage of the gender topic purely for the attention, or lie about sexual abuse for revenge or money, but that doesn't make it disappear.

                Doesn't make what disappear? Can you show me actual, statistical evidence to back up how many people are lying and just seeking attention? This reeks of conservative victim blaming and dismissal of actual victims.

                Does it happen? Sure, but I highly highly doubt it happens in any meaningful amount for your statement here to bear any wait beyond, again, victim blaming.

                but you're using the vocal objections as false flags just as much as the media used the false arguments as reasons to minimize the groups themselves.

                I have no idea what you're trying to convey here beyond something akin to "well, not all men." I'm not accusing every person of being transphobic that struggles to adapt to new pronouns, but they're also words, you can learn them quickly, especially in your native language. And being offended if someone continues to correct you is more of a reflection on you, the individual who can't or won't adapt, to understand that "this is too complicated" isn't a valid excuse after a certain point.

                And my entire thing, this whole comment chain, has been about how using proper pronouns is showing respect for someone, and y'all are making any excuse you can possibly think of to try and find situations where disrespect is justified due to your own failings or inability to grow.

                Trans people have enough to deal with, is asking other people to use breath expelled from their lungs to show them respect, even with grace periods for adapting, really asking for the fucking moon here? Like, seriously, all of the controversy around trans people, and pronouns is the hill y'all want to die on? Seriously?

                And as I pointed out in my original comment, you're allowed to not use new pronouns or respect them or whatever, but you're not allowed to be upset when society treats you in kind.

    • Yeah I support trans rights. If you are consistent I'll use your preferred pronouns. I don't care what bathroom people use. Health care is between you and your doctor. I only care about what genitals you have if we are going to be doing things with each others genitals.

      That said so many trans people are complete assholes about it. I'm on your side but fuck so many of you are annoying jerks.

      I remember when gays started coming out of the closet and they handled it better. Polite but firm about being treated fairly. The trans community is making more foes then friends the way they are acting.

    • Just use 他

      He = 他

      She = 他

      Chinese Language Supremacy!

      (Disclaimer: I have Chinese Ancestry)

    • Zzzz

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