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I used to believe this until I went on a hunt to support that belief with evidence.
It's not there. The various news reports are a giant chain of references to other news reports.
Most of them ultimately reference one of a few sources.
Adrian Zenz is one of the most referenced "experts" on the "Uyghur Genocide". He used to just write about Jesus https://www.amazon.com/Worthy-Escape-Believers-Raptured-Tribulation/dp/1449769063 until God sent him on a mission to take down China. His two big works are "the Xinjiang Cables" (which don't say what he says they say) and a report where he interviewed about a dozen people for their opinions, took it as fact and extrapolated it to the entire population of Xinjiang.
There are also a series of papers from the ASPI. A quick look at their funding list makes it pretty obvious what their agenda is (tl;dr a bunch of defense contractors).
There was a pseudonymous Canadian law student, Shawn Zhang, who pretended to be a satellite image expert and "identified" a bunch of detention centers. According to him it's easy to tell because you can see the barbed wire. I've looked at the images he claimed to reference and there's no barbed wire.
Most of the rest of the "evidence" is from organizations which receive over 90% of their funding from the US government.
Is the UN a organization that's too Westoid to accept?
The CCP bots and ops are getting weird.
It's worse - they're not bots, and most of them aren't fooled by some mass CCP campaign. They're just fascists, and will go to any length to simp for fascism.
The UN thing is a perfect way of finding out how serious someone is.
Genocide apologists will say "The UN did not call it a genocide," or even stronger, "The UN determined it is not a genocide." The thing they leave out is that the UN did call the treatment of Uyghurs crimes against humanity.
Seems like a pretty big thing for them to leave out, huh?
That's because OP wasn't talking about general "crimes against humanity". They're making the specific, and significantly stronger claim, of "genocide".
Before going any further, can we at least agree that the treatment of Uyghurs by the government of China rises to the level of crimes against humanity?
So you're saying that instead of addressing the issue at hand you want to start with a premise of "China bad." and just go from there. Great.
Twas a yes or no question
And all through the house
Not a tankie was answering,
Not even right now
That's not even remotely what I said, implied, or believe. Would you like to respond to what I did say, or put words in my mouth?
It wasn't the topic of the thread and it's not germane to the question of evidence.
It is, at best, a distraction.
No, it's not.
My points were twofold. First, to find out if we could find some common ground. Second, to find out if you actually care about sources and evidence, or judge them retroactively based on whether or not you like the conclusions.
The latter makes the conversation a non-starter, because even within a single report, you'll interpret it in different ways. Within the very constrained lens of not containing the word genocide, to you, it ought to be sufficient. When it comes to crimes against humanity, you don't want to talk about it, start attacking, and dismiss it as "a distraction." On the prior point, I hope that your frustration comes from some doubt within you, causing you discomfort. Keep pulling on that thread.
Good luck with everything. I hope things get better going forward.
Yes, it is.
Your claim of looking for common ground is bullshit. According to the Rome statue, crimes against humanity consist of systemic cases of:
- Murder
- Extermination [including "the intentional infliction of conditions of life, inter alia the deprivation of access to food and medicine, calculated to bring about the destruction of part of a population"]
- Enslavement Deportation or forcible transfer of population
- Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law
- Torture
- Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity
- Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court
- Enforced disappearance of persons
- The crime of apartheid
- Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health
There are plenty of claims that China is practicing these but a glaring lack of evidence.
If you actually wanted to find common ground on that list we could start looking at the biggest perpetrators. A few that stand out is that "enslavement" has a specific exception in the US constitution. It's conveniently tied to prisoners, of which we have the largest number in the world. Or you might look at our allies, who continue to practice both apartheid and murder.
No. You want to stake an other unsupported claim as "common ground."
The point about common ground was to give you a clear opportunity to present your position and intentions. I had my assumptions, but didn't want to unfairly ascribe them to you. It turns out I was right, unfortunately, but as a matter of difference between us, I wanted to address what you actually think, feel, and say. I would appreciate it if you did the same, but you haven't so far.
So to address another position you ascribed to me: I can easily aknowledge that the US is complicit in genocide, war crimes, slavery, and other crimes against humanity, and has been throughout its history. That does not mean the US has a monopoly on evil. That kind of campism is silly.
I've had a remarkably similar conversation to this a while back, except the topic was Palestine, and the other user was a hardcore Zionist. It literally began when I said, word for word, "killing civilians is bad." To paraphrase the rest:
"So it's bad when Hamas kills Israeli civilians?"
"Of course. Is it bad when Israel kills Palestinian civilians?"
Then the same kind of argument followed. Deflections, straw men, selective interpretation and acknowledgement of evidence, personal attacks... the works. It doesn't matter what the protesters say or do, or how many of the protestors are Jews; they're pro-Hamas, anti-Semitic. Any source supporting Israel is valid, anything condemning them is fake news. I was an idiot, I was the one arguing in bad faith... you know. That kind of stuff.
I don't know you, or what's in your heart. I hope that the aggression is coming from discomfort rooted in a sense of doubt, which I can also hope you pursue. You can believe me or not—so far, you haven't—but I really mean it when I say I hope you have a better go of things from here on out. If the nature of this conversation changes, I'm here, but if it doesn't, then it's run its course.
The UN doesn't claim there's a genocide in Xinjiang. They've gotten flack from people who assume there must be a genocide and that the UN is lying.
It ultimately has nothing to do with "Westoid". It's all about the evidence. Mere claims of "having credible evidence" don't count for much if they can't produce it.
The UN doesn’t claim there’s a genocide in Xinjiang.
You know what that Wikipedia article has in common with all the other claims of a genocide in Xinjiang?
A complete lack of evidence.
Investigative methods The report was created by the United Nations through a thorough review of evidence documented by the OHCHR.[41] Several forms of evidence were considered in making the report, including interviews with several dozen people who lived in Xinjiang at the time that abuses had been publicly reported.[39][40] The report also focused its analysis on what the Chinese government had publicly stated contemporaneously with the reported abuses, including public Chinese government documents and laws promulgated at the time.[41][42] In May 2022, OHCHR commissioner Michelle Bachelet visited Xinjiang. Prior to her visit, she spoke with representatives of several NGOs that were concerned about the both human rights situation in Xinjiang and in China, more broadly. After arriving in the region, she talked to numerous government officials, academics, and civil society leaders.[41] However, due to opposition by China, the OHCHR was unable to conduct a more thorough investigation on-the-ground within the borders of the People's Republic.[40]
Findings The report's findings included that a large number of abuses had occurred within Xinjiang, corroborating academic research and public reporting on the abuses in the largely ethnic minority region.[40] The report concluded that human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims in Xinjiang are serious and widespread.[43]
Arbitrary detention In the report, the OHCHR stated that reports that the Chinese government had arbitrarily detained Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims en masse in the Xinjiang internment camps were credible, specifying that the actions of the Chinese state amounted to deprivation of liberty and were undertaken in a discriminatory fashion.[39][44] Former inmates who were detained in Xinjiang stated that they had received beatings while strapped to a chair and described undergoing torture similar to waterboarding; the report also noted that there was credible evidence of torture within internment camps.[45] The report indicated that these abuses constituted widespread violations of human rights and that they may rise to the level of crimes against humanity.[44]
Forced labor The report found that the Chinese government's labor schemes relating to what the government of China referred to as vocational training constituted discrimination.[39][44] With respect to whether labor schemes that China describes as poverty alleviation schemes have involved the coercion of Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities into forced labor, the report stated that there was evidence that these schemes did indeed involve coercion of laborers.[42][45]
Sexual violence and sterilizations The OHCHR described reports of sexual violence targeted at Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims within the Xinjiang internment camps as credible.[39] Women interviewed by the United Nations described being orally raped by prison guards and being forcibly subjected to examinations of their genitalia in front of large crowds.[40] The report also noted that there was an "unusually sharp rise" in the amount of intrauterine device insertions and sterilizations performed in Xinjiang and stated that the Chinese government used coercive means to sharply lower the birth rate of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.[44]
No evidence to see here, the UN is just a globalhomo conspiracy or whatever the latest fascist line is.
Is there any evidence in that wall of text or just a bunch of claims to have seen evidence?
I don’t need that kind of nonsense for an actual genocide because there are mountains of primary evidence.
Fun fact about Wikipedia:
Those numbers in brackets are reference numbers. At the bottom of the article they'll be listed out (you can actually click the number and it'll take you right to the footnote) with links to those sources
Ever tried following them?
I did. That's how I know they don't get to actual sources.
Lie better, it's clear you've never clicked trough a source in your life
Unless of course CNN directly linking to the report isn't a source somehow
Here's what actual evidence looks like:
Now here's the "Uyghur Genocide"
Notice that all but one of those has photographic evidence of the defining feature of a genocide, the dead bodies.