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In this thread: people bending over backwards to defend their insane, non-logical unit of measurement
Alternatively, people insisting that Americans must be math gods for using such a demanding and archaic system.
And plenty of people who don't really care to understand how deep the roots of inch stuff is. Most people have no clue how much aerospace is commanding the need for Inch. (ALL and every aerospace fasteners are inch.)
Curious, since NASA uses metric. How do the two industries work together?
interestingly enough, there is an incident where a unit conversion cause a spacecraft to crash.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter
NASA specifies that companies who work with NASA should use metric units as a part of the contract. Lockheed produced software that output in imperial units and it caused the orbiter to flame out.
Logical, mathematically convenient, but not practically convenient. Without a measuring tool, there's no good way to estimate anything besides a centimeter.
Every imperial unit of measure can be estimated whilst naked (but preferably clothed).
An inch is your distal thumb phalanx. A foot is your foot. A mile is, or was at one point, roughly 1,000 paces.
The weather can be estimated by going outside. Is it too hot? It's in the upper third of the 100 degree scale. Too cold? Lower third, might snow. Cool enough to fully dress, but not too cold, right in the middle.
A healthy, big person is about 200 lbs. A very small person is about 100 lbs.
Converting between these units is useful in science, which is why science uses metric. But you could live your entire life on earth and never need to know how many distal phanages are in 1,000 paces. It literally never comes up. Who cares?
It's why units are divided into fractions, rather than into a decimal system.
By the way, the only reason we use a base 10 numbering system in the first place is because we have ten fingers and it was easier for early mathematicians to count. But I digress.
If you're dividing a length of rope, and all you have is the rope, it's simple to divide it in half, and then half again, and then again in half. You could even divide into thirds, if you were feeling frisky. You just fold it over itself until the lengths are even. There are two friendly numbers that are difficult to do that with, though. Can you guess what they are? If you guessed 5 and 10, you nailed it, good job.
Same with piles of grain or hunks of beef or chunks of precious metals.
But what about units of volume, you ask? I don't have a part of my body that holds roughly 8 oz of fluid to pour out. No, for that you'll need a cup. Just a cup. Not a graduated cup with a bunch of little lines down the side. 1 cup. Or half a cup, or a third, or maybe a quarter cup. Again, easily divisible for easy measuring without any special tools.
But a gallon, you protest. A gallon is 16 cups! What the fuck is 16 cups good for? Why not 10 or 100, or create a decigallon for simple math? Because 16 can be divided in half 4 times. Measuring out portions of the whole is as simple as pouring out equal portions into similarly sized containers. Divisible numbers are easier to use without graduated equipment.
And that's why time is measured in 24 hours, each hour is 60 minutes, each minute is 60 seconds. There's a ton of history there, and we'll ignore for this discussion the inaccuracy of measuring a day or a year. If the metric system is entirely superior, why don't you demand we all switch to metric time? A year will still be roughly 365 days (again, setting aside the inaccuracy) but we could divide the day into 10 equal metric hours, or mours, and those mours into 100 metric minutes, or metrinutes, and then those metrinutes into 100 metric seconds, or meconds. 1 mecond would be 0.864 seconds, and a metrinute would be 1.44 minutes, which to most people would be an imperceptible difference in time. Hey, how many seconds is 1.44 minutes? You don't know without a calculator because we don't use metric for time, and it probably never bothered you once before now. What an insane, non-logical unit of measure time is.
Yes, metric let's us convert millimeters to kilometers, or helps us determine how many calories it take increase 1 cubic centimeter of water by 10 degrees kelvin. It helps with those things because the units are arbitrarily defined to make the math easier, not to make the measurement easier. But that's it, there's no additional sanity, no additional logic. It's easier to convert between units via math, because it was designed to be easier to convert between units via math. There are no additional benefits to the metric system.
This is either a way too elaborate troll or one of the dumbest things I have ever read and I can't figure out which it is.
Point to the thing I said that was not true.
Wow you are actually serious. Okay here we go.
- Units of measurement are made to be accurate, while most of your rant talks about "estimating". Being easily estimated adds zero value and it's something you invented to try and make your point.
- Disregarding point 1, every single thing you said can be reversed by someone used to metric. I have no clue how to estimate things in imperial, but I can easily estimate 1 cm, 1 meter, 1 litre, 1kg, etc with a similar margin of error as you can estimate imperial, because I'm used to it.
- Your point about temperatures is the most boneheaded of the entire paragraph. Go to Chicago, ask someone what is "kind of hot" and what is "kind of cold", and compare it to a New Orleans resident. Wanna bet they give wildly different answers? Also, again: what is the merit of this? If it's 30 degrees C outside I consider it hot, 5 or below is cold. What does it matter which numbers you find important?
- About your rope, or your piles of grain and hunks of beef. I have no clue what your point is there. Do you know what we do when we want more precision? We just move the decimal point. You want 1/5 of a kg of beef? Might want to ask for 200 grams instead. I don't even know what kind of point you're trying to make there.
- Metric is standardised. A metre in Belgium is the same as a metre in France, and a metre in Norway, etc. You're talking about a ounce. You mean an imperial ounce or a US ounce? Do you like pints? Do you want a US pint or prefer an Imperial one? Space ships have crashed because of nonsense like this.
As a final example, let's go beyond units of measurement. If I place a book on the table and ask you to estimate the value of it: you might say something like 20$? I might say something like €20? We just use the currency we're familiar with. What if I ask you to estimate the value of that same book in Vietnamese Dong without looking up anything? 50? 100? 200 000? I wouldn't know. I don't know if you buy a pencil sharpener or a car with 200k Vietnamese Dong. But a Vietnamese person would know, right?
You're talking purely from a perspective of someone that is very familiar with one system and has very little knowledge of the other. It's not that you -by your own omission- can only estimate something like a centimeter and not much else that the rest of the world breaks down when they see a 3 centimeter rope. Both systems might have merit, but metric is a clearly superior system in almost any perceivable and objective way that I can think of.
A foot is a foot. Fantastic. Glad to know everyone has the same sized feet.
And the same length on their legs so we all pace the same distance.
I would say good troll, but it just seems too long to be ironic.
Is every location at the exact same elevation? Varying elevations have varying atmospheric pressures. You've got the Netherlands at 0 m elevation, and places in Bolivia like La Paz and El Alto which are ~4000 m elevation. That's an atmospheric pressure of 101 kPa for the Netherlands and 57.2-69.7 kPa for the Bolivian cities (I don't have the time to interpolate the data table unfortunately). This corresponds to a drop in the boiling point of water from 100 C to approx 86.5 C.
Both systems have just as arbitrary reference points. They also both have absurd conversions -- why isn't it 100 seconds to the minute, 100 minutes to the hour, 10 hours to a day, 10 days to a week, etc? It would make my work so much easier if time was powers of 10, but that's where metric stops?
Good thing that Celcius is scaleable with Kelvin, which is scaleable with Pascal and meters. So you can easily calculate very precisely what temperature the water will boil at depending on your elevation.
Time is measured at a base of 12. Because it's far easier to create mechanical watches on a base of 12.
What is important is that it's a standardized measurement. We all have the same second.
I'm not sure if you're trying to make arguments for Fahrenheit or if you're just reciting your 7:th grade physics homework
It's a measurement system for humans not calculators.
It's a measurement system for dumbasses who are scared of base 10 operations
A foot is a foot. Fantastic. Glad to know everyone has the same sized feet.
First off, it's an estimate. Your feet don't need to be exactly 12 inches/1 foot. If your feet are only 10 inches long, it's still useful information because you know your margin of error.
That being said, there's no reason why you can't also do this trick with the metric system. You would just need to divide the amount-of-human-foot-length by around 4 to get your human -foot-measurement into meters.
There aren't many instances in normal life where accuracy and precision are that important. Modern humans can measure distances with lasers and satellite coordinates. You probably own a tape measure and at least one type of scale. But unless you're building something, baking something, or selling something by weight, estimates are almost as good as knowing something precisely.
We see the same in countries that us metric. Most people estimate how many meters, kgs, or liters things are because taking the time to accurately measure isn't necessary. Maybe your phone tracks your daily jog, but that's only going to be accurate to within a few meters, and most people would round off to the nearest significant digit anyway.
Yes. People estimate things. Because we don't carry around a scale in our pockets. What does that have to do with anything?
The point of metric system is that things should be scaleable. And relatable. Between different types of measurements, such as weight and volume.
Yes, that's the point. The imperial system has been succesful and remains popular because people do carry around (rough) scales with us most of the time, and because the advantage of being accurate and scalable really isn't that useful in day to day living. Having a single unit of measure for the length of a aheet of paper and the distance to the nearest city isn't a significant advantage for most people in most applications. I don't need to know how many inches are in a mile, because the conversion usually isn't necessary. The point of the metric system you've described has no advantage in most normal use cases, and we use it when it does have an advantage.
What do you mean “remain popular”? The imperial system has roughly 500 million users. While metric has over 7 billion.
And even in the countries where imperial is used, the scientific community in them still use metric.
How can you even attempt to talk about the advantage of normal use, when you don't even know how to use them?
Metric is a tool. Just because you don't know how to use the tool, doesn't mean it's not advantageous.
Ofc conversions in imperial isn't necessary, it's gibberish. No normal person will be able to relate the two.
Your argument boils down to you telling us writing is pointless because no one knows how to read.
Ofc they can't read when there's nothing to read.
How can you even attempt to talk about the advantage of normal use, when you don’t even know how to use them?
Metric is a tool. Just because you don’t know how to use the tool, doesn’t mean it’s not advantageous.
Ofc conversions in imperial isn’t necessary, it’s gibberish. No normal person will be able to relate the two.
Are you under the impression that Americans don't know how to use the metric system? We learn to use it in elementary school. We regularly go between the two and relate them to each other.
Your comment is unnecessarily arrogant based on complete ignorance.
No. It's based on my own experiences from living in the US. I had the wonderful luck of meeting a woman i love. She happened to be an American. So I would like to think I've spent a fair amount of time interacting with Americans from many different walks of life.
They know it exists. But they do not know how to use it. Because they are not taught how to use it.
I'm not insulting Americans for not knowing something they were not taught. But I will ridicule you for trying to argue against something you don't understand.
the answer to how much energy you need to heat up 1 liter of water 1 degree C is 1 kilo calorie (1kcal).
The answer to how much energy you need to heat up 1 gallon of water 1 degree F is go fuck yourself I'm not looking that up.
You should be able to appreciate that different people have had different experiences, and in a place as large as the US, there are going to be a whole slew of them.
I personally studied metric in elementary school and middle school. It's what's used for science, how could I not have? If others didn't learn that and instead had everything in imperial, that's news to me. It's perfectly possible though, with just how large the US is. It does make me a bit surprised that Missouri of all states taught this, but maybe it was unique to the district.
And i studied biology and chemistry. How much of that do you think I remember after 15 years of not having to use any of it in my job?
Think we can apply the same logic to other subjects. You learn about Metric. And then you go back to never having to use it because metric just isn't used in the daily life of the average citizen.
There aren’t many instances in normal life where accuracy and precision are that important [...] unless you’re building something, baking something, or selling something by weight
Yeah, because building, baking, or selling something by weight are totally not important and absolutely common "instances in normal life" 🤡
Good fucking grief...
Correct, the vast majority of humans won't build, bake, or sell anything that requires scalable units of measure. A cup of milk doesn't need to be precisely 237 mL of milk, nor would most people need to scale their recipe to feed 1,000. If you're building a shed, dimensional lumber is plenty precise, and it doesn't require converting the height of a ceiling into miles.
Jesus wept 🤦♀️
You do understand that precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using? Right?
And yes, when you’re baking, you need precision. Try making consistently good bread just by rule of thumb, I’ll wait for your results.
BTW, measuring things by weight is not just more precise by far, most of the time it’s also easier and faster.
But hey, be my guest trying to gauge that cup on your beaker that’s 10% off.
And yes, if your butcher sells you meat, you would like to pay what you bought, and not 5% more.
And it doesn’t matter if that’s g, lbs, oompah loompahs or whatever. 5% of something is 5%.
FFS is this a knuckle-dragging contest here?
precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using
1 degree Fahrenheit contains the same amount of heat as 1.8 degrees Celsius. The base unit provides more definition. If you're limited to just whole numbers, Fahrenheit will give you more precise information about heat.
Of course, decimals exist, so it really isn't a big deal.
Oh look, another knuckle-dragger, swell!
Of course, decimals exist, so it really isn't a big deal.
It’s not a big deal, it’s patently false. Unless you deal with some fundamental limit, like the Planck constant, you can split any unit as much as you like.
But at least you admit you just make up baseless „arguments“ simply in order to be right.
You know what that makes you? A fucking troll.
Get lost. Blocked.
Christ, who hurt you?
For someone so belligerent about something so inconsequential, you're also entirely wrong about almost everything. Ice your britches.
You do understand that precision has absolutely NOTHING, at all, to do with the units you’re using? Right?
Baldercrap. One of the primary advantages of the metric system is that it can scale down for additional precision as necessary. Metric easily scales infinitely in both directions, so you only need one unit of measure for each type of measurement. Imperial units don't easily scale, so the level of precision is tightly bound to the unit you select. You're not going to get the same precision from miles that I will from inches. So that was a stupid thing to say angrily.
And yes, when you’re baking, you need precision. Try making consistently good bread just by rule of thumb, I’ll wait for your results.
Yeah, that's why I brought up baking as an example. But the cool thing about baking is that recipes exist in both metric and imperial units. I can measure my flour in ounces if I want, and take a teaspoon of salt, half a cup of milk, one large egg, and there's never any reason to convert between those units because who cares? I'm not making dough for 1,000 loaves, nor would I ever need to figure one one-thousanth of a loaf, so metric doesn't provide any advantages for the typical home baker.
BTW, measuring things by weight is not just more precise by far, most of the time it’s also easier and faster.
With a digital scale, sure. I have one and it's great. I highly recommend it especially for baking. But digital scales weren't always widely available or inexpensive, and most people don't own one. Nearly everyone who uses a kitchen to cook will have access to measuring scoops. And not for nothing, but my grandma never measured anything and was an excellent baker. It took years of trial and error but she could adjust her recipes to a humid day to make perfect baked goods.
And yes, if your butcher sells you meat, you would like to pay what you bought, and not 5% more.
And it doesn’t matter if that’s g, lbs, oompah loompahs or whatever. 5% of something is 5%.
That's why butchers use scales. Grocery stores also use scales for produce and deli produces like cheese. Would it surprise you to learn that the vast majority of humans in America are not butchers or grocers? Their math might be easier with metric, especially when ordering bulk quantities, but for the typical customer, they want an 8 oz steak and a half pound of cheese. So why don't butchers and grocers use metric?
Because their customers don't use metric, and there are more customers than butchers or grocers. The conversion between units of measure, the entire reason metric exists, just isn't a daily consideration. It makes no difference if the steak and the cheese weigh the same, or if you can scale up and down.
Also, another tangential point, most of the math today is handled by computers. Figuring the unit price of a side of beef or a pallet of cheese isn't something people need to do in their head anymore. The inventory database will effortlessly convert between pounds and ounces and stones and tons. It can even convert everything to metric if you like.
FFS is this a knuckle-dragging contest here?
Gosh, you're rude. Maybe spend less time attacking me personally and try to think of a valid argument. Or better yet, just go back and actually comprehend what I wrote, and maybe you'll understand that our positions aren't really that far apart.
To be honest I regularly convert between units. Especially mm, cm and m (sometimes km) and liters to kg. And g and kg. So I dont really understand how that isnt neccessary for the majorjty of America. Does noone build stuff, or I dont know, put a picture up a Wall, stuff like that? I know you said it is easy to half stuff in imperial. I dont really half stuff that often? When measuring stuff I mostly add, subtract etc. I very rarely just take 50% off whatever I measure. What do you do to need so much halfing stuff? If I need rope I want a specific length of rope not half the rope that is on the wall.
Yeah, I’m not reading your wall of text on „something so inconsequential“, lol. Clown.
You can take any unit and break it down or scale it as much as you like. You can have a milli-inch if you want do, it’s 1/1000th of an inch.
Now get lost.
Ok. Hope your day is as pleasant as you are.
What a fat load of bullshit
What's a "fat load" in metric?
Anything above a BMI of 100.
OK, but this is why certain Imperial measurements caught hold, and why Americans still use it. We also use metric for the things metric was created to measure.
They're just the arbitrary numbers you know. I know below 10 is cold and below 20 is chilly. Above 20 is warm and above 30 is hot.
I know what a liter looks like and I know roughly how far 100m is. You learn the normal numbers for each system by using them. But metric is logical and imperial is random.
I feel like a lot of this is based on what you grew up with and you eventually related it to something to make it easier for you.
Like a cm is the width of a fingernail. A dm(10cm) is the size of a middle finger. 100m is 1 minute of walking. I know 1 metre is my normal stride.
Is it too hot? 30s. Is it cold? Less than 10. Is there snow? Less than 0. Is it cool enough to fully dress but not too cold? Around 20.
Big person? 100kg. Small person? 50kg.
The point is that you can make any system relatable.
Oh it's absolutely just based on where you grew up. And there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone uses a rather stupid time system compared to metric measurements, but we stick with it because that's what everyone is used to.
Of course you're right. The point isn't that one is better than another, the point is that Imperial was historically easy to share and use. There's a sense among metric users that the imperial system is stupid, illogical, unwieldy, and useless (see the comic and almost every comment in the thread). None of those things are true, and the advantages of the metric system hardly ever come up for most people.
It's easy to hur dur Americans stupid, but the reality is always more complex.
To be fair, if it truly were more convenient, countries like Japan, China, India or the Middle East that had no cultural reason to prefer one over the other, wouldn’t have chosen metric.
I don’t think Americans are either stupid or more inefficient for having the clearly more impractical system, but I can’t help feel that the only reason they’ve kept their very odd measuring system is that they will never recognize anything ever being better in other countries than it is in theirs.
In a way, the imperial stubbornness among Americans feels like yet another display of American exceptionalism and their odd superiority complex, than anything logical or even pragmatic.
Absolutely incredible copypasta
You know, this convinced me....
that I wouldn't mind metric time actually
RemindMe 10 Megaseconds
I actually wrote a paper in high school extolling the virtues of metric time. It was not persuasive.
Brilliant. Now if we only used base 12 numbering system, things would be even easier to halve.
Why stop at base 12. Let's go base-60. Divisible by 2,3,4,5 and 6.
All-in, let's do base 210. Divisible by 2, 3, 5 and 7, covering all the small primes.
And we can do even better: base-420 which is also divisible by 4 and a funnier number.
Because at some point the difficulty increases with regard to the number of symbols to memorize. A balance exists. I surmise it's 12. Only 2 more to memorize than 10 and more ways to halve and double than 10. Easier for mental work.
16 is not hard, we use it for hexadecimal all the time. Could as easily use base 32, if it's a matter of memorizing symbols.
Base 30 would be better overall: divisible by 1, 2, 3, 5, and everyone reading this knows more than 30 basic symbols (0-9,a-z).
Base 12 is better than base 10, but base 16, aka Hexadecimal is better still.
Base 16 is only divisible by a single prime, just a fancy name for base 2.
Why? (genuine question)
OK I'm looking up the history of the metric system now.
Have a go at ‘The Measure of All Things’ by Ken Alder, a very interesting book on that subject.
Thanks! Bookmarked (I got a ton of lemmy bookmarks, lots of reading to do lol)
I honestly love this take. The fact that people are responding so negatively to a damned decent argument for units that can typically be halved a couple of times without messing around with decimals only shows how irrational the motivation to insist that one is more precise is. Might as well be a sports team the way even glancing in the direction of nuance provokes upset.
Every imperial unit of measure can be estimated whilst naked (but preferably clothed).
so I can ask a 9 yr old child to walk out naked to the streets to measure a thing in their foot and:
- I'll get the exact same answer as if I send an adult priest naked to the street to measure the same thing in their foot
- I'll not get the priest to rape the kid
?
Yes, officer, this comment right here.
the officer also sees the naked child
ennakes themself
"well, time to fill the imperial metric quota"
Wow good job making both of the most beaten-into-the-ground jokes simultaneously. You win the award for most unoriginal.
How dare you have reasons and explaining them so thoroughly. I'm here to hate people because they are dumb.