Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
Small, well-built Chinese EV called the Seagull poses a big threat to the US auto industry
The car, Seagull, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China.
A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S.-made electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.
Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles probably will keep the Seagull away from America’s shores for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.
But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers exploded on the scene during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.
“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It’s a when.”
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OK but let's talk about the practical thing, how do I, a random American, get one?
Drive it over the border from Mexico. Although, you'll likely have to pay above the sticker price. Latin Americans are gobbling up Chinese NEVs as fast as they can deliver them.
I don't know if the laws have changed but (for some reason I forget), a dealership here imported two three-wheeled small pickup trucks from China within the last decade or so. So it was at least possible within the recent past somehow.
How do you, an average American, purchase an anti-worker product created by an adversary government? Simple, you move to China along with the rest of the American CEOs.
Anti worker. Riiight.
That's just you speaking the Big Three's mantra. If they'd gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn't need Big Brother to run to their aid.
This is no different than what happened in the 70's, so obviously they never learned their lesson then. This round, it's time they did.
This isn't about technology at all. It's about labor costs. UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well and they don't get maimed by robots much. If in doubt, check the profit margins of the Big Three. The higher labor cost is also required because the standard of living is completely different. People in NA can't work for Chinese wages and survive. And if you want to create a race to the bottom, that's anti-worker. The shareholder class of the Big Three is still making disproportionately more than workers but this is one of the North American examples where there's much more balance between them and workers.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members. I don't think many would have a problem with BYD building NA factories, especially if unionized by the UAW.
@Buelldozer is right, he's just being extra spicy about it.
UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well
UAW labor doesn't cost more because its workers are paid well. UAW labor costs more because of our private health care system dumping workers into an extractive for-profit insurance system and the pensions system has been defrauded for decades. And even then, the margins on these vehicles are such that labor costs are negligible, particularly with the enormous amount of automation that goes into line work now.
That's before you get into how many auto plants have been de-unionized, either by moving them south of the Mason-Dixon Line or by setting up two-tiered contracts that phase out older union workers for younger scabs.
People in NA can’t work for Chinese wages and survive.
That's because they don't have access to Chinese state benefits. No state pensions. No state health care. Stripped down public education. Crappy old roads instead of public rail. 90% of the population owning their homes rather than renting. Medicare and SS benefit cuts forcing folks to work into their 70s and 80s, rather than retiring comfortably at the age of 54
That's why Chinese labor is cheaper.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
Toyota plants aren't unionized. We just saw an effort to unionize a plant in Troy, Michigan this year and its been fought tooth and nail by the industry.
"paid well" only has meaning in the context of standard of living, or cost of living. You provided that context. Within it they're paid relatively well. They're not getting state pensions or healthcare anytime soon so we work within the context.
You provided that context. Within it they’re paid relatively well.
This exposé is a bit suspect, or at least this part is which makes me question the integrity as a whole:
He was forced to walk 21 miles daily, one way, to his job
Average human walks 3mph. This dude apparently never sleeps.
The whole thing reads like a corporate "uNioNS BaD" article
and they don’t get maimed by robots much
???
- Is there evidence that Chinese workers have high high rates of this?
- People are getting maimed at Tesla plants all the time.
- The US created the neoliberal WTO to crush labor rights worldwide, worker safety among them. The only reason the US is sabotaging the WTO now is because that system no longer favors it.
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Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
I don’t understand. Were Honda & Toyota forced to, or did they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?
This is no different than the 70s tho, when the oil crisis and subsequent importation of compact vehicles forced the Big Three to mothball the 'boats'.
BYD would likely want to gauge support in America before committing to building factories, especially in a nation where land prices have skyrocketed.
@Buelldozer is right, he’s just being extra spicy about it.
You're darn right I'm being extra spicy. This is a re-run of what I watched happen with textiles, steel, and other manufacturing businesses here in the United States and especially industries that were heavily unionized with higher labor costs.
It's astonishing to see so many people willing to kill their Domestic Labor just so they can get a cheap car. It's disgustingly short sighted and selfish.
Yeah I'm a bit puzzled because I think these folks are supportive of labor given they seem positive about workers in China having better safety nets. Yet letting cars in that will destroy local manufacturing isn't going to do anything positive for North American labor. If anything is going to help, it's supporting them instead of non-union car makers and supporting union action at non-union manufacturers. I'm of the opinion that we can't expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have. They simply won't represent labor to a significant extent unless they see workers as organized voting blocks that don't lap up corporate propaganda.
I’m of the opinion that we can’t expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. — Audre Lorde
I don’t think we should try to play the game by the capitalist class’ own rules, which they created for themselves. We’re never going to be able buy the political system by outspending the capitalist class: they own the means of production and it’s their political system.
Right now labor is very divided, shattered. It was significantly more organized a hundred years ago, though still divided along racial lines, a mistake we mustn’t repeat. People don’t seem to remember now how many socialists existed back then and were deeply involved in that organizing, before they were crushed by red scares and other skulduggery. And unfortunately almost all of our surviving unions came from explicitly anti-socialist roots, the others having been purged. Socialists are still extremely few in the US.
We can’t buy government, and we know our vote alone has very little power. What we need is a resurgent, re-organized labor movement, and new labor media (we used to have our own newspapers!) to counteract corporate media, and we need new mass industrial actions that fit today’s material conditions*. That’s how we forced the state to make concessions in the past.
*Simply organizing “blue collar” workers again won’t cut it, because many of us are not that now.
What you suggested is what I imagine. Thank you for articulating it!
They think they're leftists. But they're too "me first" on consuming to realize they're not.
Anti worker. Riiight.
Are you seriously trying to make the claim that a Chinese auto worker is doing as well as a UAW member? If you are I want proof, if not then what are you talking about?
If they’d gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn’t need Big Brother to run to their aid.
You realize it's "cheap" in China because their Government subsidizes it and the manufacturers abuse their employees, right?
This round, it’s time they did.
I have no love for the American Auto Industry but this idea that BYD or any other Chinese "New Energy" vehicle is competing on anything like a level playing field is ludicrous. They are cheap because they pay their workers like dogshit, they treat their workers like dogshit, they have near zero environmental safety regulations, and they have near zero environmental regulations hell. 2/3rds of their electricity is produced by burning coal!
Lusting after a cheap BYD product just because you despise American Auto Manufacturers is literally cutting of your own nose in order to spite your face.
US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well. It’s not just the Chinese government. For my purchase, the direct incentives alone were $11,500 (and that doesn’t count the tens of billions in indirect subsidies) - if a legacy manufacturer could make an EV for even double the cost of BYD, I’d buy it since my cost would be the same
I’ll give you higher wages and move the goalposts toward you to account for it ….. let’s say double the price. Where is my flood of EVs from legacy manufacturers for no more than double the price of Chinese manufacturers?
US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well.
What you refer to as "heavily" (~15B across four years) is what China spent per year every year from 2009 through 2022, for a total of 173 Billion dollars. Their latest package, announced last September, will have them spending 73$ Billion across the next four years. Their Government has literally been subsidizing EV production at 3-4 times the rate of the United States for over a decade! Yeah, that's a totally level playing field. No shenanigans there, no Sir.
let’s say double the price.
As the article notes the Seagull, rebadged as a Dolphin Mini, sells for $21,000 in Latin America so you aren't going to get it for $24,000 in the United States and most especially not if it's built here where they can't employ people for 5 USD an hour.
You don't have to like it, or me, but it's completely irrefutable that the 12,000 price is only possible due enormous government subsidies and cheap Chinese labor. Allowing those vehicles into the United States is the end of all domestic auto manufacturing, not just the Big 3, and all of the workers who are employed there. We already watched this play out with Steel, Textiles, and other manufacturing based industries.
an anti-worker product
Lolz. Lmao even.
I always was under the impression that america is similarly anti-worker, esp. hearing news about tesla strikes. Probably not as extreme as China though if you compare safety standards. When I look at car companies, there is honestly no good option that I would happily support by buying from. What do you mean about CEOs moving to China, is this a thing?
anti-worker product
Most products in the states is literally this.