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It's not like public opinion has changed much in palestine, check the other comments for sources.
But ultimately I believe that people are responsible for their government. If you are born in gaza, realize that Hamas is shit but don't try to bring change through protests or organizing opposition and also don't leave but stay, go on with your live and pay your taxes to Hamas etc. then you're part of the problem. Otherwise what is left? Hamas being untouchable due to the people acting as human shields? In my book that's way worse.
Totally dude, totally. If I were a child growing up in Gaza, and I lived in poverty, with poor access to food and medicine because of Israeli blockades, while thousands of my countrymen where killed or displaced by Israeli air raids or gunned down by the IDF for protesting...well, obviously I would want to overthrow Hamas. I would definitely hate the group fighting the country makes my life hell, and I would definitely try get Hamas out of power.
Like you said, people are responsible for their government, and the people of Gaza (who are, again, HALF CHILDREN) are responsible for removing these extremists from power, even though they don't hold elections. Another great take dude.
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity? And you think after what happened Israel should just accept Hamas at their border and wait it out for the next attack?
Sucks for the kids but it's also pretty bad for the Israeli children that are still in captivity btw. Should Israel just give up on them?
You mean the blockades where Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity?
Holy shit the Israeli propaganda is strong.
After more than a month of the Israeli government’s unlawful blockade of Gaza, which has included catastrophic cuts to water, fuel, and electricity, as well as very limited deliveries of food, water, and medical supplies, the lack of clean water is resulting in “grave concerns” by public health experts of an imminent infectious disease outbreak in Gaza, including waterborne illnesses like cholera and typhoid.
Israel is genociding Palestinians. This is not some controversial take. It's the stance of the UN and the majority of the international community, supported by mountains of evidence.
Yet still pigs like you dare write garbage comments like that
I mean that's exactly what I am talking about. How was Israel in a position to cut anything? Because it was them supplying in the first place. To you expect them to keep on feeding and supplying after the attacks? You kill my festival goers and cry foul if I stop giving water and electricity in return? Maybe don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Honestly, it blows my fucking mind how utterly delusional people like you are.
A hypothetical, if you will: you own a house and assume (for some legitimate reason) that you own the land around it as well. Well, the state informs you that you don't actually own the whole land and I'm gonna build a house next to you.
No issue there, plenty to go around. But then for the next few generations, I keep annexing your land bit by bit. I even annex most of your house, and now you're living in the cupboard under the stairs, because I made you.
Would you feel anger? Well, that's irrelevant. At that point, you're dependent on me, because of my actions.
Does that justify then locking you in the cupboard without food, electricity or water? Does that make it okay for me to deprive you of basic human rights?
Especially because you didn't even do anything. It was your violent cousin that you have no contact with and who you think should be in jail. But he shares your surname, so I use that to justify my crimes against you.
UN notes I'm wrong. A majority of the international community agrees I'm breaking your basic human rights.
I still refuse to admit I'm doing anything wrong.
End of hypothetical. Do you see anything wrong with it?
No. And now you'll regurgitate some more zionist prppaganda while completely ignoring the UN's position that Israel is committing warcrimes. You simply can not admit any flaw with Israel, because of your programming.
Please. Please, prove me wrong.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/02/1146587
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/02/1146242
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/09/un-court-has-ruled-on-gaza-genocide-case-heres-what-happens-now.html
Did I say I approve the land stealing and settlement policies? What I said is that going on a killing spree and running amok on a music festival is not an acceptable reaction, even if you're being treated unfair and your land is being stolen. And if your government thinks it is then this kinda does become your responsibility.
What you're saying is that "genocide is the correct and moral choice in this situation".
Isn't it?
Are you denying the Israeli are genociding Palestinians?
No matter how horrid the Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel were, they do not justify genociding Palestinians.
And fucking shame on you for implying it does.
"It's the Palestinians own fault they're being genocided"
Where did you grow up, might I ask?
That is not at all what I said. And I do indeed not believe Israel is genociding palestinians. The settlement policies are shitty but they do not equal genocide. Refusing supplies if Hamas takes control of them, that's also not too much to ask. And if Hamas declines, who is it now that is denying supplies to palestinians? It's a shitty situation but no, genocide is something else entirely.
I grew up in Germany and you're right, that might have influenced my views about how people are responsible for their government and how extremism has consequences.
"I know better than the UN and the majority of the international community, they're all just propagating Hamas' lie but everything Israel says is 100% true and they've not done anything wrong"
See the part a few comments ago where I said my mind is honestly blown by how delusional people like you can be.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/01/1145937
Court order Detailing the provisional measures that Israel should implement, the ICJ judge noted that both South Africa and Israel were States parties to Genocide Convention and therefore had agreed “to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide”.
Quoting article 2 of the key international treaty signed in the aftermath of the Second World War, Judge Donoghue explained that genocide was defined as “acts committed with an intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”.
The two-million-strong Palestinian population did indeed constitute a distinct group in the court’s view, she said.
Turning to the article 3 of the Genocide Convention, which prohibits “conspiracy to commit genocide” and public incitement to commit genocide, the judge said that the ICJ had taken note of a number of statements made by senior Israeli officials.
These included comments by Yoav Galant, Defense Minister of Israel, who reportedly told troops on the border with the enclave that they were fighting “human animals” who were the “ISIS of Gaza”.
You're simply refusing reality, because you've been brainwashed.
You grew up in Germany. I believe the schools in Germany teach the history of the holocaust pretty well. If you were awake for even a minute during even a single lesson, you must have heard about how the Jewish people were treated during WWII, and with what rhetoric the Nazis justified that with.
But you're still unable to perceive that when Israel is doing it? Even when UN and the majority of the international community agree vehemently that Israel is committing crimes against humanity?
___
A) No, I mean the blockades that have been going on since 2007. They limit necessary supplies to Gaza and are the reason it has been called an, "open-air prison." B) Israel is the occupying force in Gaza and therefore has a legal obligation to supply Gaza with water and power under the Oslo Accords. C) Israel has been failing in that obligation, because for years 97% of the drinking water has been below the minimum safety standards for human consumption.
Anyway, again, really great points, really showing your knowledge of the conflict here.
I mean there are also legal frameworks in place that prohibit kidnapping your neighbours kids and shooting up their music festivals. Somehow Hamas gets to break this but Israel is still bound to Oslo accords?
Great question! There are two possible answers: 1. Israel is a democratic nation that respects human rights, in which case it needs to behave in accordance with international law or 2. Israel is, like Hamas, a nation of extremists using violence against civilians to achieve its political goals, in which case it needs to be treated like any rogue nation. So, since you invited the comparison, you tell me; does Israel need to hold itself to a higher ethical code than Hamas, or are they the same as them?
Well I think you also forfeit some of our your legal rights after you commit crimes? And certainly that doesn't make Israel a rogue nation or just as bad as Hamas. There's nuance and middle ground, it's not black and white. The USA one-sidedly canceled the Iran nuclear treaty and the Paris climate agreement and they never accepted the ICC, that's shitty but would you argue it makes them a rogue nation just as bad as Hamas? I don't think so.
You asked why Islrael should be expected to follow the Oslo Accords if Hamas didn't. I answered. If.you don't like the answer, tough. But please, if you take one thing away from this interaction, make it this; the Palestinians can't, "forfeit some of their legal rights," because of the actions of their government. What you're describing is called, "Collective Punishment," and it is literally a war crime. Congratulations, you reasoned your way into advocating for war crimes. Great job.
bravo
The right to not be killed on a music festival outweighs the right to free water and electricity. It doesn't make Israel and Hamas equally bad or rogue. And wether you name it collateral damage or collective punishment I guess that's what war is like, sucks but always was like this and really there is no good way around it. Because what is the alternative? Israel directly supplying Hamas who they are at war with?
The right to not be killed on a music festival outweighs the right to free water and electricity.
It abso-fucking-lutely does not. A terrorist attack does not justify denying 2.5 million people access to water. You know, cause they die without it. And this isn't new, Israel has been using water as a weapon since the sixties. Look up Israeli Military Order 158.
Anyway, I think in done here. You've don't know basic facts about the conflict, you've defended war crimes, and you've actually suggested other war crimes. You have no idea what you're talking about and you're an awful person. This is a waste of my time.
The situation is just way more nuanced and not so simple as you make it out to be. Like did you note how Israel is actually not outright denying all supplies, they just want to not have it controlled by Hamas. That is a very reasonable thing and an absolute good faith try to keep the supplies going. If Hamas basically declines then how is it Israel denying water or starving millions of people? I don't think Oslo accords demand for all supplies to go through your enemy military.
> killed on a music festival
if you're worried about that, then take the guns from the iof. they're the ones who apache'd a fucking music festival.
Great job blaming THE LITERAL VICTEMS OF GENOCIDE FOR THEIR GENOCIDE,
So the palestinians are being victimized both by Hamas and Israel and they have no control of their live whatsoever? If this is your take then why do they choose to stay and why do they choose to bring kids into an environment like this?
No, my stance is that Isn'treal is comitting a gennocide aganst palistine. Hamas is not victimising anyone here, they are in effect one of the organizations the opressed are using to fight back.
As for why they "chose to stay" where do they have to go, for the VAST majority not only is palistine the only place they have citizenship to, its also their home, and most people do not take kindly to an invador trying to take it, or to wipe you and your culture out.
As for why have children, because 1) why aid the genocide and 2) they are still humans doing human things, they still want families, they still have hope for a future, when things get bad we dont just stop having offspring.
Bullshit, the invader didn't exactly come unprovoked did it? People couldve stayed inside Gaza and live peacefully but no that's not enough somehow. They somehow have to constantly attack their neighbour and then cry foul when they loose. When they could've just as well directed this energy into improving Gaza and making it more liveable. And of course Hamas is merely fighting oppression, after all parading naked bodies of girls that they raped to death is just what freedom fighters do right?
Except they could not, Isn'treal kept encroching with their illegal settlements, also look up the Nakba, they where the ones who drew first blood, not the Palistinians. When you are being activly opressed, you do not lie down and make your getto more livable you fight the opression
also there is no evidence of Hamas raping anyone... let alone parading it arround, you know who has reports of raping women though, that is right Isn'treal. so maybe stop speaking out of your god damn ass, and stop suporting the genocider. Opressed people have a moral right to fight back aganst their opressor.
Im referring to the case of Shani Louk among others, go look up the videos if you can stomach it. Somehow I don't see this behaviour on IDF side, they also don't attack music festivals or take 4yo kids as hostages. Hamas has lost any credibility and certainly has no moral right to anything anymore. The case of settlements might be shitty but they are no justification for any of this.
look at the Nakba, or the consistant or ongoing and persistant genocide of the Palistinian people of Isn'treal that has been going on for decades none stop. There is no moral right on the side of Isn'treal, and there is no justification for their existence. Zionism, was considered Antisemetic for a long time and was linked to Nazism. During this phase of the genocide there have been endless reports of rapes of Palistinian women. If we want to talk about moral rights, the Genocidal Settler Colony, has no moral right to anything and predates hamas... speaking of, Hamas was not the first freedom fighting group, there was (and still is) the Popular front, they are far more left wing, but grew too popular for the liking of Isn;treal so they funded Hamas hoping to start infighting (there was not) the only thing that happened was it became a freedom fighting group closer to the overton window of Isn'treal.
I mean maybe the way Israel was set up was not correct but it's been a long time ago and it's time to let go. This is revisionist, just like Putin arguing how he wants the soviet union back or China vs. Taiwan. Israel is a fact for a long time now, there is no good way to change this now so maybe look forward and try for peaceful coexistance.
And yes the settlement policies and other things are bad, I'm not saying that everything Israel is doing is 100% good. But it's on an entirely different level and the ends don't always justify the means. If you try to fight this by being a babarian horde using human shield tactics and by parading dead girls with their tits out through the streets of Gaza then don't expect my support.
So let me get this 100% straight what you are saying... Isn'treal stole land, even after Palistine offored to start a new state combining the both of them, they did the Nakba... confined them to gettos, contenualy will launch attacks on them un provoked, kicked them out of their homes, prevent them from travel, puts Palistine on a strict calorie count as found by the UN to keep the palistinians hungry, routeenly denies them water, food and electricity, will routenly kill them, berate them, dehumanise them. Call them "animals" and "Beasts" but because Isn'treal started this genocide in the late 1940s so if we round to 1950 about 70 years ago, within living history, was "so long ago" the people, who might I add are STILL BEING GENOCIDED should just let it go, because without violance there is no way for them to end their opression and genoicde?
Your argument, just so I know 100% and I am not called someone who is straw manning later is that if a genocide is happening for long enough, and opression is happening for long enough, the opressed should just let it happen, and rocking the boat means violance, and might make others uncomfertable, so just let the genocide happen and try your best to live peacefully with, the people who have in the past genocided you, and are still genociding you?
Did I get your argument correct?
This is not at all what I said and you are making assumptions that are not true. Like Israel is attacking unprovoked just for the sake of it? That's bullshit. And Israel routinely kills random civilians out of cruelty? That's simply not true. Yes civilians sometimes end up as collateral damage but it is never the direct intention. The IDF has processes in place to determine when and where to attack and every single one is based on intel and reasonable probability that legit combatants and targets are hit. Are they always right? Of course not. Do they accept civilian casualties if that can't be avoided? Of course they do. That doesn't change the fact that civilians are not attacked unprovoked just like that out of cruelty or in order to genocide them.
The same can't be said about Hamas music festival attacks and that precisely is the difference.