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I don't consider tankies leftists. I'm an anarchist. I consider myself far left.
Can you name a large scale anarchist project with better rights than Cuba or Vietnam?
I'll save you the effort: nah. Catalonia had concentration camps and "free" Ukraine was a bandit dictatorship that empowered kulaks to do pogroms. And they both got crushed partially due to a lack of centralization, and a lack of collaboration with and alienation from popular fronts.
"Tankies" as you put it, are the actual leftists advancing liberation, and not just jerking themselves off about how left they are, which is easy to do when their ideology remains only theoretical. When the rubber hits the road, anarchists fall somewhere between the brutality of socialist projects and capitalism.
As Trotsky said "anarchism is a rain coat that leaks only while it is wet"
I don't believe in rights. at least, there's no such thing as an inalienable right, since governments can and do take them away. I'm not even sure how to begin to answer your question given that I think that you're talking about fictions. sort of like asking me which anarchist society had the most thetans, or protection spirits.
I didn't think that I'd have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure. but I guess it's true that some people still side with the wrong people at the second international.
I don’t believe in rights.
Not even positive rights? You're literally like "authority means it is by definition a class society" and you don't believe in rights? How do you square that circle?
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don't want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
I didn’t think that I’d have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure.
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state? You know, that thing that socialists and anarchists both do, that involves hierarchy in repressing right wing elements? That socialists actually acknowledge the evil of, as opposed to pretending like they're not doing a transitional state?
Or do you have a new super special plan to do classless society day one? If so I'd love to hear it.
it's not new. gallianists have been at it for a century.
Sorry, I set the bar too low.
Feasible plans for a classless society day one.
How far have they gotten in that century? Because honestly the whole "at it for a century" thing reeks of failure.
Sorry, I set the bar too low.
Feasible plans for a classless society day one.
nothing like moving the goalposts to end the workday.
i'm opposed to prefigurative theories of revolution. we don't know what society will look like in every corner of the world without oppression. we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
You're against concentration of power. Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?
It seems like you want to fight and lose.
Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?
you're going to need to define revolution and success and concentration, and at this point, we might as well just lay our cards on the table. you believe it's only practical to have a transitional state. i have a suspicion about anything that even smells like a state. we will not reconcile this in !memes today.
i don't think i'm misrepresenting your position. i feel i understand it, and i disagree about the practicality of setting up a system of oppression to end oppression.
How far have they gotten in that century? Because honestly the whole “at it for a century” thing reeks of failure.
they got the fucking arch duke (and dozens of other heads of state). they blew up wallstreet. i think these are pretty big accomplishments.
Oh, wow, so they killed some people and bombed wall street.
How successful was that in achieving their political objectives?
very. they inspired millions, which was the goal of those actions.
Okay, so, the end result of inspiring people means that their political project succeeded? Their end goal was to inspire people? I thought their end goal was a classless, stateless society?
I thought their end goal was a classless, stateless society?
right, but since we (they) eschew(ed) prefigurative theories, we (they) only organized to fight. the actual structure of society is up to the people who live in the world that we (they) make possible.
Not even positive rights?
no
How do you square that circle?
one has nothing to do with the other, except that hierarchies sometimes pretend to respect (or grant)rights, but the fact that they have the discretion means the rights, themselves, are fictions.
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
that's not what you proposed to use as a metric. i'm not sure how to quantify them and, frankly, or what a good measure would be, i guess.
i do know that i don't trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe. given the choice in constructing a revolution, i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they're found.
i do know that i don’t trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe.
Thats some right libertarian hyper-individualist hogwash. Stop being alienated from your fellow workers.
i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they’re found.
So, let's say the workers form Soviets. Those Soviets have to be destroyed, right?
So, let’s say the workers form Soviets. Those Soviets have to be destroyed, right?
it is going to depend, isn't it? are the soviets operated with consent and consensus?
i already explained i have no illusions that i can dictate what it's going to look like after the revolution. i do know what i won't tolerate.
are the soviets operated with consent and consensus?
Is this material to whether the soviet is concentrating power? Either way you have a small group of people making legislative and executive actions.
Is this material to whether the soviet is concentrating power?
a system that operates with consent and consensus has no authority.
Okay, you need to actually define authority, because I feel like each anarchist I've encountered has a different definition.
I know this was lazy. but I think it's good enough.
edit: oh. this is a bit better
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
we all know about the bootmaker, but i would say if there is an oppressive hierarchy, it's not anarchist.
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh. And they absolutely had authority. Hell, they had concentration camps.
We should define an ideology by its actions, not just its claims.
no. we should judge people by their actions. we should judge ideologies by their propositions.
should judge ideologies by their propositions.
Okay, I see. If we are judging ideologies purely by "wouldn't it be nice if" then anarchism is clearly superior.
Well, on second though, no. "wouldn't it be nice if we didn't get defeated by fascists" certainly has a pretty nice ring to it...
Okay, I see. If we are judging ideologies purely by “wouldn’t it be nice if” then anarchism is clearly superior.
you almost got me
Well, on second though, no. “wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t get defeated by fascists” certainly has a pretty nice ring to it…
i'm not saying i have a good plan. i'm saying i am suspicious of any plan that concentrates power, and i believe my suspicion is warranted.
i’m not saying i have a good plan. i’m saying i am suspicious of any plan that concentrates power, and i believe my suspicion is warranted.
I mean, look up the life expectancy of China vs India over time. Place your suspicion against the facts.
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh.
you don't get to define what i am.
And you don't get to no true Scotsman away the Catalonian or Ukrainian anarchists, who did large scale anarchist projects.
if you have cops, you're not a fucking anarchist society. this shouldn't be hard to understand.
Okay, so at this point it seems anarchist societies are pretty impossible, if all these principled anarchists end up forming non-anarchist societies over and over again when they win power.
So what is even the point of being an anarchist? To feel good about yourself?
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state?
yes. it's why we split at the second international. i wish you all would give up on the transitional state.
Can you name a large scale anarchist project that wouldn't qualify as a transitional state?
large scale
this is a setup for a no-true-scotsman. i'll talk to you about anarchist societies, but i won't let you define them out of existence.
You’re literally like “authority means it is by definition a class society” and you don’t believe in rights?
right
being invaded by imperialists is not an indictment of a society or its structure.
Imprecise definition aside, revolutions have to be able to defend themselves, and it could be argued Catalonia and Ukraine started in much better material positions and ended up falling apart because of problems with their political/economic structure, while the semi-centralized democracy and rationalized economy of the USSR allowed them to succeed in defending itself from the Nazis (but not, ultimately, from the US empire, however Vietnam, Cuba, laos, and China succeeded, and the DPRK partially succeeded)
Just like there are many brands of far right (nazis, religious fanatic), there are many brands of far-left - anarcho-socialists, communists etc.
anarchism and communism are the same thing.
No. There's a spectrum of both communism and anarchism, their intersection tends to be known as anarcho-communism. An example of non-anarchist communism is vanguardist communism, which is inherently authoritarian (and anti-anarchist).
a communist society is classless, moneyless and stateless. anything else isn't communism.
So? That doesn't automatically make communists into anarchists (nor vice-versa for that matter).
I would disagree. clearly I do.
Well, I think we're at an impasse, let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. Hope you have a decent day, fellow Lemming :)
They're analogous to the far right is the main thing. Anarchism/communism/etc. is the gateway to such views. Most lefists don't go that far (good) but some do. Same thing with the far right, they start off as libertarian, ancap, or run of the mill conservatives etc. and end up going into cuckoo land after they watch too much cable news and facebook conspiracies.
In the USA, we have an environment where it's far easier and more beneficial to those in power to co-opt people into right wing extremism than left wing extremism, hence the outsized representation. You can definitely find countries where the opposite is true, it's a fairly big issue in south american and southeast asian nations. What's interesting to me is that the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state where there is a powerful insular ingroup that can exploit the masses to their benefit.
the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state
first, a bit of snark: there is a cure for political illiteracy.
then, a rebuttal: communism is a stateless classless moneyless society. there is no such thing as a communist state. for many anarchists, this is indistinguishable from anarchism.
Statelessness is the end goal of communism, yes. I have met so-called communists that think strongarm authoritarianism is the way to get there, and for some reason believe that those authoritarians would willingly give up their power once they've achieved a position where they could implement said stateless society. This is basically what happened in the USSR and China, and is decidedly not the path Marx himself proposed for achieving it. A stateless communist society in Marxist thought is simply the natural progression after late stage capitalist societies, which is not a step you can simply skip over.
I don't necessarily agree with the idea, but I think it's important to be educated on a wide variety of schools of political thought.
The far lefists aren't commies though, that's my point. They play like they are, but really they're just authoritarian fascists. Commies are just regular leftists, and marxist schools of thought are a totally reasonable worldview to carry even if I don't agree with some points of it.
if you're not building a classless stateless society, you're not a leftist. I'd be just as offended about being called a liberal as being called a tankie. statism is bad.
They’re analogous to the far right is the main thing. Anarchism/communism/etc. is the gateway to such views. Most lefists don’t go that far (good) but some do. Same thing with the far right, they start off as libertarian, ancap, or run of the mill conservatives etc. and end up going into cuckoo land after they watch too much cable news and facebook conspiracies.
i don't think there is a reputable source to substantiate this.
I don't know of any particular sources but I do have anecdotes of watching friends and family fall into these traps on both ends of the spectrum. A couple of my leftist friends have started treading dangerously close to some pretty sour viewpoints. I mostly see it as pro-accelerationism, everything I don't like is capitalism/neoliberalism/western values, and are totally blind to the influence propaganda has on them and the weak points in their own ideologies.
On the right, I've watched several of my family members go down the fox news alt right rabbit hole and end up at similarly dumb viewpoints. They also want a revolution, except everything they don't like is liberals/communism/woke etc. They are also totally blind to the influence of propaganda and the weak points in their ideologies. The media machine in the US is set up to make this pipeline far more efficient than the leftist version.
They mostly don't like the same things, but they're pulling in opposite directions, and each is convinced that when the revolution comes, their side is the one that will win out, when in reality, we'll probably just end up with the same shit, different coat of paint.
Me? I think there's concepts we can borrow from many ideologies that can help us solve specific problems and bring about incremental change until we reach true propserity. The socialists and commies get some stuff right, so do the libertarians, the anarchists, the ancaps, etc. The only thing I think will definitely not help is tearing it all down. There is no silver bullet, it's all just problems that are met with ever improving solutions. Sometimes we take two steps forward one step back, but I don't think anyone can deny that the world at large is better off now than when it was almost completely ruled by monarchy, bloody violence, and slavery a few hundred years back.
Exactly this. I've been calling them the "burn it down" group. It's not a fun ideology... sure they don't have a lot of power today, but that's how these things work. If they have power it's too late. It's worth knowing that this is a growing movement with real people. They are my cousins, coworkers and a few of my friends lol. Not just a social media rhetoric or scare tactic.