Paradox of tolerance
Paradox of tolerance
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/6541859
Wiki - The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually ceased or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
Tolerance is a social contract, if you break the contract, you are no longer covered by it.
The paradox is false. Society depends on the social contract; You tolerate me and I'll tolerate you and nobody hits each other with fists/clubs/spears/swords/bullets. We all get to try to do our best to thrive. If an entity tries to take away that right from somebody, they have broken the contract. Contracts have consequences. Intolerance isn't tolerated because it breaks the contract. If the contract is broken we can't have society. People who want a society should respect the contract and not tolerate intolerance. No paradox, just a logical process.
My issue with your theory here is that you are putting yourself as the author of the contract. This is the tactic conservatives use, by saying some stuff and expecting the reader to fill in the blanks with their own biases.
You: “social contract exists, you should respect the contract”
Me: “what are the rules of this contract? where can i read it?”
You: “you know the rules”
Ahh yes, the rules.. That you should dip your balls in the toilet water to wash them off after pooping. C’mon man, everyone knows the rules. It’s right there in the contract.
Maybe some day they will make an infographic about how your way of thinking is better than others.
I never signed a social contract. Your argument is false.
Teachable moment here. Your reply is why the paradox of tolerance needs to be taught to everyone, even if it's not perfect. You didn't sign any tolerance agreement upon birth, but treating your fellow humans with tolerance if they are doing the same for you should not be something you have to consciously agree on or physically sign paperwork for.
I see this pretty often, but I see a problem with it. Bad actors are always going to exist. I assume that this situation would require a law that makes intolerance illegal. Which I am all for.
But in the US we are already seeing people say that LGBTQ culture is being “forced” on them. Now, I know that is insane, and I know that you know that is insane. But, those people absolutely believe that they are being “forced” to acknowledge a thing that they don’t believe in.
I don’t think it’s too crazy for us to assume that they would try to use the same legislation that was supposed to protect us from them, to destroy peoples lives. They would say that a way of life that they don’t agree with is being forced on them, and their culture is being destroyed. Lots of conservatives would follow suit.
What protections would need to be put in place to stop that from happening?
Idk if this is arguing for a law to be passed. It’s telling people “don’t let Nazis/fascists get away with it unscathed”. There’s no “I disagree but it’s ok to give them a platform” allowed- tell them to fuck off.
But to strip them of a platform. Changes have to be made to the first amendment. There is absolutely no way to completely de-platform someone. There’s tv, radio, podcasts, social media, blogs, discord, and the list goes on and on.
I feel like I need to say this every time. I too do not like Nazis or fascists. I’m just pointing out that with essentially becoming a different kind of fascist and adopting a “might makes right” culture of our own. That cartoon only tells part of the story.
Any movement that preaches intolerance and persecution must be outside of the law.
LGBTQ acceptance does not do these things, no matter how much right-wing snowflakes claim it does otherwise in bad faith.
I know that LGBTQ acceptance doesn’t do anything bad. But, just as sure as you and I are that LGBTQ people are great people. The conservatives are that sure that they are a plague on mankind. Conservatives truly believe that their kids are in danger.
However, to ban the intolerant makes you intolerant. You would be persecuting the intolerant. I would argue that action would make you more intolerant than the intolerant people you are persecuting.
The only option is to teach our kids to be better, and expose them to as many different kinds of people in society as possible. While reinforcing that no matter a person’s position in life. There are good and bad people.
If force doesn't mean at gun point they can fuck off.
To restrict someone’s freedom, there needs to be demonstrable harm. “I don’t like it” isn’t harm. “My god doesn’t like it” isn’t harm.
I agree with what you’re saying, but to certain people. The fact that anyone exists that doesn’t believe in their way of life is harmful. After all, remember, the people I’m referring to believe that just LGBTQ people existing it is harmful to the “children”. Before conservatives said that about LGBTQ it was black people are harmful.
I just want to reiterate. These are not my feelings. But laws in the US are open to interpretation. I know that the LGBTQ community is not only relatively harmless, and I only use “relatively” because bad actors exist everywhere. But, as a neglected teenager. It was a gay man that came to my rescue and asked nothing in return but my friendship. Dude was a fucking saint. I know first hand how important the LGBTQ community is.
But having tried to engage with conservatives on these issues. I can tell you that they absolutely believe the LGBTQ community is harming kids. Because laws are open to interpretation. This would leave a way for conservatives to use a law like that against people that it was designed to help.
This comic is always posted and it always neglects to include the full context of Popper’s quote, which disagrees with the comic:
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
The problem with this, as always, is that generalizing tolerance and intolerance breaks down as soon as you start putting issues to it.
Should we tolerate those who are themselves intolerant? The argument goes that we shouldn't and it uses an extreme example, Nazi-ism, as support. Fair enough, we shouldn't tolerate those who seek harm against others because of immutable characteristics.
So what about people who are intolerant of others in the case of MAP? Are we supposed to be tolerant of MAP folks and their actions because intolerance of them makes us the baddies? Should we punch the anti-pedophile?
So maybe this Paradox of Tolerance issue is a bit more nuanced than just "Nazi's bad."
Maybe we need more clarity as to what is meant by "intolerant". I would consider myself an antipedophile, but I would not support the death penalty for pedophilia. I believe in having consequences for wrongdoing without the need for violence against or death of pedophiles as a class. But if there were a group of vigilantes or even government agencies that were actively killing pedophiles, I would say that could not be tolerated. So, maybe we can say "Violent intolerance cannot be tolerated"?
The concept references the law, but it's worth noting that even anarchist societies have ways of horizontally dealing with intolerance. Diffuse sanctions, for example.
is this a guide? its just a paragraph with graphics...