What from r/atheism at the old place do we want to avoid here in c/atheism?
What from r/atheism at the old place do we want to avoid here in c/atheism?
I'll start! There was a lot of absolutist rhetoric there that said things along the lines of "All Christians are terrible, horrible, no good, very bad people!" I think a little nuance is in order, no?
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Maybe a greater respect for the biological reality of limbic needs. People who are religious aren't automatically morons for simply being religious. Spirituality is an essential part of what makes us humans. So, perhaps we could do better to vocalize that respect, while still addressing the specific truth claims.
Also, helping believers ask their own questions without attacking the fact they've been led to believe something would go miles further in helping them develop critical thinking skills.
Insults only drive people deeper into superstition and fundamentalism.
EDIT: Check out "Street Epistemology" on YouTube for what (in my subjective opinion) seems to be the most efficient way to help people think through their beliefs.
EDIT 2: It seems we may be defining spirituality differently. I am NOT talking about supernatural beliefs. I'm talking about an emotional sense of connection to something bigger than oneself. The things managed mainly in the midbrain, especially through the limbic system. Spirituality =/= superstition, though the latter has become deeply entrenched in popular spiritual pursuits.
EDIT 3: "Something bigger than oneself" = Any natural system of which you are a subcomponent.
Spirituality is an essential part of what makes us humans.
Source?
I read that to mean "Spirituality is an essential part of [human history, and is still prevalent today in most cultures]." In other words, it's an inseparable aspect of humanity. Just as erring is human.
This kind of makes it sound like concerns over inner experience or universal ontology are erroneous. Ofc superstitious and fundamentalist instances of this are error, but "spirituality" does not depend on either of those.
Edited my comment
No I knew what you meant, I just would like to see where you’re getting that idea from
Not to sound adversarial, that’s not at all my intention. But you can’t just say common human desires are a conditional requirement for humanity without strong evidence to back it up.
I could just as easily say “Wanderlust is an essential part of what makes us human. Everyone needs to travel the world and connect with new places and cultures. It’s ‘cause of the way our brain is”. Many people want to travel, yes, but is the way I phrased that correct? Can I prove that?
But either way, I agree with the spirit (hah) of what you’re saying, just feel like that’s a weird angle
I'm not sure we're on the same page yet. Please bear with me...
Spirituality refers to concerns with the inner human experience. Dualists would say they're concerned with the "soul/spirit" of a person, but you and I know we're talking about emotional functions of the brain.
My whole point is that being concerned with inner experience is quite natural.
Naturalistic peeps like you and me would obviously prefer science-backed approaches to this (e.g. certain breathing exercises/meditation/mindfulness/productivity/self-improvement/education), but many people prefer superstition and fundamentalism... pursuing tradition-backed approaches.
The ignorance lies in the approach, not the concern.
Calling people stupid or ignorant for mere inner experience pursuits just isn't helpful, because inner experience pursuits... the design is very human 😂
That's not to say all people are or should be concerned about their experiences. It's just not dumb for people to be concerned about it.
Yeah like I said I know what you’re saying. I think it was just phrased weirdly. Your third and also your final paragraph better represent how I (not that I’m anyone important) would have liked to have seen the idea communicated in the first place
Edit: also still seriously curious on a source for the neuroscience you’re referring to
To provide you a source I guess I'll need to know the parameters of your question. There's a lot that goes into subjective feelings of connection, concerns with inner experience, recognizing our place in larger systems, etc.
To be honest, I think if I try to continue this conversation I’m going to become unacceptably snarky. So I’m gonna dip. I appreciate your perspective, please enjoy your weekend!
Same to you, friend!
Spirituality is an essential part of what makes us humans.
I guess I'm not a human.
Edited my comment
I’m talking about an emotional sense of connection to something bigger than oneself.
Still sounds like I'm not a human to you...
You have a limbic system, a parietal lobe, etc. You don't feel connected to anything? No people? Communities? Games?
Inner experience doesn't matter to you, even if science-backed?
Even if you don't feel any sense of connection to anything at all, you'd still be human, but you'd probably be diagnosed as a psychopath.
I don't feel connected to anything bigger than myself. I feel connections with other humans. I feel connections with animals. Unless you mean other humans who are physically larger than I am, I do not feel any connection to anything bigger than myself.
So I guess I'm not human.
By "bigger than one's self" I mean things like community, family, etc. A group of people is larger than one person. Or nature: you're a part of the universe at large, and are ontologically connected to it in a variety of ways. You're part of ecological systems bigger than yourself. Life and death and all that naturally implies. You don't feel in any way connected to anything beyond your own body that's larger than you? Not your source in space, your inevitable demise, or even this community?
I don't feel emotionally connected to groups or "the universe at large." I feel emotional connection to individuals.
I think you're playing semantic games here. Feeling connected to individuals in a selected group is exactly what I mean when I say a feeling of connection to a community. You're trying to tell me your brain does not make you feel connected to any system of which you are a component?
And if your answer is "no," a human incapable of sensing that they're part of a system doesn't negate how natural it is, generally.
You said an emotional connection. Of course I'm part of many systems. That doesn't mean I have emotional stakes in them.
Exactly. I'm only talking about the things your limbic system responds to. Spirituality concerns inner life, and emotional stakes are part of that. Emotional stakes in systems of which you are a part, is human. That can be connections to other components of that system, or some other aspect of that system, but a sense of connection is a sense of connection. Spirituality concerns itself with these inner, emotional experiences. Not all humans are or necessarily should be concerned with these experiences (though mental health can benefits from awareness in this area), but the limbic system/parietal lobe are demonstrably involved with these experiences, and it's an odd argument to say you don't have these common, human structures, or any relevant experiences.
In short, I'm not calling you subhuman. I think we just haven't yet found common ground on these terms.
Spirituality =/= superstition
Emotional connection is an inner experience (a phenomenon of our bodies), and caring about inner experience, including its relationship with systems outside the body proper, is quite human.
I’m talking about an emotional sense of connection to something bigger than oneself.
My house is larger than I, and I really like it. Is it what you mean? If not what do you really mean?
I see spirituality as similar to sexuality: wildly popular across and entwined with every culture for obvious biological/social reasons, but just as I don’t see asexuals as being less involved in the “human experience”, I don’t see spirituality as essential to humanity.
Edited my comment
“I am NOT talking about supernatural beliefs. I'm talking about an emotional sense of connection to something bigger than oneself. The things managed mainly in the midbrain, especially through the limbic system. Spirituality =/= superstition, though the latter has become deeply entrenched in popular spiritual pursuits.”
How is this definition distinct from, say, feeling a sense of connection to one’s community? Neighborhood? Political party? Those are distinctly real things, no superstition required, but I don’t think you’d say that someone canvassing for a governor’s race is spiritual.
This definition is in no way distinct from that emotional sense of connection to anything else. I wouldn't call canvassing "spiritual," because it can be done for intentional, material interest. "Spirituality" is a term reserved for inner, emotional concerns. Of course, canvassing, like anything else, can be the result of these concerns, but if it's not an activity knowingly intended to meet "inner" life concerns, it would indeed be weird to call it a "spiritual" activity. Then again, canvassing under the guise of Christian Nationalism may be considered by the canvasser to be a "spiritual" activity, and in the sense that they are doing it because they feel driven by an inner sense of connection, they'd technically be right about calling it that, though I have a few other words I'd use to describe it...
Lol. Holy shit the replies to this…
Slow your roll, everyone. Maybe don’t grab onto the ‘Spirituality is an essential part…’ so fervently. If it doesn’t apply to you, good for you! Sure, it was worded in a way that made it sound like it was applying to all humans, but the sentiment of the post was a plea for a bit of grace when dealing with people coming to terms with religion. No need to be so dang pedantic.
No, ‘spirituality’ isn’t vital for human flourishing, but it’d be folly to say that it isn’t an important dimension of human experience. Just not ALL humans, and certainly fewer now than in decades past.