No real drama, beehaw just doesn't have the moderation tools to handle the sudden large influx of users from both lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works (I can never remember where the periods go, sorry if it's wrong!) in order to moderate their communities how they want to and was struggling. It's hopefully a temporary measure until mod tools are strengthened but has shone a light on some of the other cracks in the system that require some attention too. From what I've read it was basically constantly fire fight issues with limited tools and people or use the nuke option which is unfortunate.

I'm thankful for everyone confirming my thought process, I wasnt sure if I was completely missing something important. It sucks that I seem to be correct, but it helps to know that I'm probably not imagining the issue lol

My mistake, apologies. I saw this sub recommended to someone else in a thread over at Lemmy.world community discussing something tangentially related but I realise now I may have missed something important as to why it was recommended to them. I previously posted this question in a lemmy.world thread but people did not understand my question lol.

It's a pretty bad oversight, and makes me think the best thing to do is temporary mutual defederation until it's addressed which obviously isn't ideal at all, but I do worry about the implications of so many reasonably sized communities being completely unmoderated on our end. Thank you for the advice tho, I'll make sure to save your comment so I can refer back to it if this isn't fixed!

Hi :)

I can see you, just demonstrating something

Maybe I'm not being clear here.

lemmy.world users can still make new posts in [email protected], which is only hosted on lemmy.world and there is no indication in the UI that the community is a 'false' version, only visible to other lemmy.world users

The posts made in [email protected] by lemmy.world users are not hosted on the 'true' beehaw instance. The 'true' community is moderated by beehaw mods. The 'false' community is moderated by who?

lemmy.world never had moderators for these communities because they were beehaw.org communities. So who is moderating these posts?

Examples of posts in beehaw communities by world users after defederation

https://lemmy.world/post/172609

https://lemmy.world/post/167045

https://lemmy.world/post/158352

https://lemmy.world/post/185750

https://lemmy.world/post/162320

Is it a rare bug if it's possible on multiple beehaw communities? These are all posts on different beehaw communities by lemmy.world users after defederation that I can only see while logged into my lemmy.world account. Last post by me that I just made.

https://lemmy.world/post/172609

https://lemmy.world/post/167045

https://lemmy.world/post/158352

https://lemmy.world/post/185750

See this post here. example of what I'm talking about

This post is available to all lemmy.world users. But it is on a 'false' beehaw instance, completely unlinked from the true instance. Previous moderation was done by beehaw mods

Lemmy.world users can post a d comment in the local version of beehaw communities.

I joined the LGBTQ community, and there has been posts made by other lemmy.world since the defederation that are only visible to other lemmy.world users.

Who moderates those posts now, because the lgbt@beehaw community was previously moderated by beehaw mods. Now those mods do not see those posts and they are not on beehaw servers, only Lemmy.world servers. But Lemmy.world never had moderators for that community because it was a beehaw community

Edit: example

Not this one, the beehaw shell communities that are still accessible but disconnected from beehaw mods

So who moderates those posta? Is that shown before making a post or comment or does a user have to mistakenly post and then see the 'true' post doesn't exist to work it out?

I use jerboa app so that icon doesn't exist at all, which is more an issue for jerboa developers but from a phone/app user perspective, there is absolutely no way to identify a sub has been defederated without switching accounts to a federated account.

Amazing post with great info, thank you! There literally nothing in UI to let people know this is how it works tho and relies on words of mouth sharing. Communities essentially look exactly the same but like there's been no activity unless lemmy.world users post in it so you have to be able to guess posts are on a defederated instance or be hypervigilant in checking usernames if you haven't seen any posts about it, or are a new user in a week when this is t discussed as frequently. This is a huge oversight tbh and leaves me feeling a little uneasy. With more questions.

For example the LGBTQ community hosted on beehaw. Hypothetically say all of us genuine users who are aware of this unsubscribe because we find other communities that allow us to participate with a wider community. The shell community is still there, using beehaw branding, looks like a legit LGBTQ space but is now exclusively populated by trolls and unfortunate users who have missed announcements that this has happened. Nothing in the UI informs anyone posting or commenting there that it is not the true instance, and therefore no longer moderated by the owners.

Unaware user who already subscribed before the defederation posts a topic they want to discuss in a few weeks time, and suddenly they're flooded with highly upvoted troll responses That post ends up on the lemmy.world local/all page and is broadcast to other users who may not be aware, and a lot of new users who have no idea this ever happened. Now Beehaw is known as a hub for homophobic trolls that allows queer users to be trolled, and the trolls know they can get away with it in that community. Sure, eventually someone will come in to let that user know what's up and where to go, but by that time the damage is already done.

That also leads me to question how reporting works for this type of thing. If I report a user for breaking sub rules on the false version, who does that report go to? Is it a random lemmy.world mod/admin because we are both lemmy.world users in a community without beehaws mods or is it lost to the ether because there's no longer a connection to beehaw mods? If it goes to world mods, what if someone violates the subs rules that are still shown on the false instance, but not lemmy.world rules? My understanding was that moderation happened in communities by the host instance so does that mean these shell communities are completely unmoderated? That makes me feel very uncomfortable that these shell communities are even still available to world users, if it is the case, and should be cause for a mutual defederation until it's addressed but I'd like to have my reasoning corrected here if I'm off base. I'm still learning but this has me a little concerned so would appreciate being corrected if I'm wrong.

Edit: people are misunderstanding what I'm saying in the comments.

Who is moderating posts made by lemmy.world users in 'false' beehaw communities since the official beehaw moderators can no longer see these posts?

https://lemmy.world/post/172609

https://lemmy.world/post/167045

https://lemmy.world/post/158352

https://lemmy.world/post/185750

https://lemmy.world/post/162320

Yeah it's essentially a local shell using beehaw branding.

It definitely needs something in the UI to show this is the case. Lemmy.world users who do not have multiple accounts cannot check this, and could be led to believe anything posted locally is mod approved by beehaw which is not good for anyone involved. Luckily it seems to protect the rest of the fediverse from this possibility (unless screenshot and shared externally) so the main issue is only to ensure defederated server users are aware. Easy for those of us here and saw the posts about it, but potentially new users who are unaware of this could be easily misled.

Something like an auto flair/tag might address it, but I'm not even going to pretend to understand how to implement something like that. All I know is users of defederated servers need to be shown visibly on every post that they're not engaging with the actual instances community and it's a local copy only. (ETA or somehow delete the local copy? Just something lol)

I can see this post via lemmy.world but not feddit.uk

Beehaw is still federated with feddit.uk, and is not showing posts in this sub from lemmy.world users

I cannot see posts in this sub from beehaw or other instance users, I only see lemmy.world user posts while logged into lemmy.world

So it appears that lemmy.world users can only see and interact with other new lemmy.world posts, so if you see a post from beehaw right now while using a lemmy.world account, it's clear it's from another lemmy.world user (if you are aware of the defederation, it definitely doesn't tell you which is pretty bad imo)

If it is the same for all other servers, I am assuming if you are on a beehaw federated server you will also not see posts from lemmy.world users.

I've had my first opportunity to see how this works first hand now actually with beehaw defederating with us and it seems to confirm this, except I can't seem to see new posts added which answers the question for definite lol.

So when on my lemmy.world account I can no longer see new posts from communities I've subscribed to on beehaw, but I can still see the posts from before defederating if I go to them directly. This is true at least using the jerboa app, maybe it's different on browser but I'm a phone user so I don't use the browser lol. I had to switch to my feddit.uk account to see new beehaw posts on my subscribed communities to confirm it wasn't just a slow community.

Hopefully it becomes easier to subscribe to communities on the app sooner rather than later so I can actually have the energy to join these communities on multiple accounts so if more defederation happens I can still just read them haha

For what it's worth, I'm not a tech person who didn't have anything explained to me beforehand, knew almost nothing except seeing the words 'lemmy instance' (didn't know what that meant, just that it was relevant so googled it and found a sign up page) and 'jerboa app' on reddit and figured out my way here lol. I probably have a bit more free time and patience than the average user and am not afraid to brute force my way through just to see if things work tho lol.

There needs some improvements before it'll be mainstream accessible for sure imo, most of which I've seen pointed out a few times already on different communities. I'd seen mastodon mentioned before in passing by non-tech friends who were just twitter users tho even without ever using Twitter myself, so I suspect if an average user can understand mastodon the same could be true here right?

Yeah I'm actually really glad we are defederated with that instance, I definitely don't want to see those things and it made me think pretty highly of this instances admins. There are definitely lines that shouldn't be crossed and it seems the admins here understand that while still wanting to be open which is pretty cool.

So while lemmy.world probably won't block them, if lemmygrad.ml blocked lemmy.world would I still be able to see posts from communities I've subscribed to from there or would everything be cut off? I'm not really here to participate in online politics but I like reading it. American politics is an interest and I am a socialist so I enjoy seeing different opinions, but I try to keep my political activities to irl local politics in my own country, I just want memes and to be able to read differing opinions of Americans even if I don't engage directly with them.

For sure! Don't get me wrong this wasn't intended to be a criticism of the fediverse at all, I think the more I learn it's becoming apparent it's actually probably a better way of remaining anonymous simply due to the nature of how it works. Just offering a perspective on why I'd feel more comfortable with a larger user base long term. It's a psychological aspect basically rather than a rational one lol. On Reddit I basically just got a new account every year and completely scrubbed before abandoning them, with a million throwaways for any specific issues that if posted on my main would be too identifiable. Here I'll just hold off on offering personal info for now and just try to get a feel for each community, but it'd just be nice if I find a few homes it feels safe in for that :3

It can be quite difficult to find communities especially using the app unless you see a post in all and can just click through.

If you open up your browser, open feddit.uk, click the search icon and type !https://lemmy.world/c/gunners I think that should work. You have to search from your 'home server' (the site you signed up on) so you remain logged in. It'll give you a link, and when you open it you can hit subscribe that way. Much easier to just click the sub name from a post in 'all' tho.

Yeah I made an account on feddit.uk too, but I made this one first and it's taking a long time to build up subscriptions at the moment. Once it becomes easier to find and subscribe to communities I'll start building up my feddit.uk one too.

I use the jerboa app as I'm a phone user, and overall it's really good except for the community visibility and some other small issues. I'm constantly switching between the app and my browser to go through that process if I only see a link to a new community rather than a post I can just click through on. I'm sure in time these things will be addressed tho

Absolutely, I suspect we'll see lots of duplicate communities to begin with and some will grow large, some will remain small and tight-knit, and some will just fade away. I'm still getting to grips with the whole fediverse thing but what I've experienced so far has been great and I think it's starting to make sense the more I use it so I have a good feeling about it. Some teething problems but overall it seems like a great place to be even if it doesn't totally replace Reddit.

I kinda love the anonymity of Reddit, I could talk about my personal life with strangers who won't remember me within 5 minutes so I felt safe being open about things I can't talk about IRL even if I didn't get any feedback. I'm hoping that regardless of size, the communities here allow me to do that and still feel safe. Obviously I'll be more cautious here with a smaller user base, but I was still cautious on Reddit too because bad actors who would do you harm exist everywhere and can't be totally avoided if you engage online at all. Sometimes a larger user base simply helps alleviate the stress because you are just another random user rather than a recognisable user for people like me, but it definitely cuts both ways and sometimes people forget you are a human too. The quality of the community is absolutely the most important thing tho, and good communities will grow naturally.