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What horror story/movie/game/whatever terrifies you even though it's fictional?
  • Well. My child is that age and I very much relate to the protagonist. Was not expecting a gut-punch this afternoon.

  • (WEEKLY) Watch This Movie
  • Trailer here.

  • (WEEKLY) Watch This Movie
  • A few recommendations for various reasons, some known and some less-so:

    Romance:

    • What Dreams May Come - Robin Williams in a kind of version of Dante's Inferno. Deals a lot with death and a non-religious afterlife. I'm a stoic 6'4 dude and weep openly every time I watch this.
    • Love Never Dies - Did you know there's a real official sequel to the musical Phantom of the Opera? There is. It's okay, not great, but pretty fascinating more as a cultural artifact. I think I remember a decent song, but nothing like the first. It would have been better to make it straight up fucking weird like Starlight Express.
    • The Fountain - This is one of the most artistically-sound and crushing love beyond time movies I've ever seen. I've watched it about a dozen times and swear there's at least three movies in here once you understand it. Amazing visuals, and great performances and one of my favourite films of all time period.

    Thriller / Horror:

    • Dave Made a Maze - So a guy makes a spatially-impossible cardboard structure in his house. It's... fun. There are minotaurs. Also made of cardboard.
    • Cigarette Burns - From the series Masters of Horror. It's 1 hour long, but is extremely well-done and handles dread amazingly with a great pay off.
    • 1408 - The best version of a "haunted room" movie I've ever seen, actually creepy in many places, and one of Sam Jackson's all-time best "MOTHERFUCKER" moments.
    • Dog Soldiers - This one is a tad more common, but it's the best werewolf movie I've found and gets the monsters 100% correct. Low-budget, but astounding creature effects for werewolves. A lot of Alien vibes.
    • Drag Me To Hell - Another common one, but it's one of the best things Sam Raimi has done outside the Evil Dead series, and definitely the closest he's come to Army of Darkness since. If you're even a casual fan of Evil Dead or horror-comedy, and haven't seen it, what are you even doing?

    Comedy:

    • The Birdcage - Was big at the time, but I haven't seen anyone mention it in ages. One of the great Robin Williams performances for both comedy and drama. He runs a drag club with Nathan Lane.

    Action:

    • Equilibrium - Came out roughly the same time as The Matrix and got completely buried. Excellent action scenes. Christian Bale does a 1984 / F451.
    • Batman: Assault on Arkham - One of the best DC Animated movies ever. Yes I know that Mask of the Phantasm is better, but this is still really good and legitimately funny.

    "Bad" Movies That Aren't At All Bad:

    • The Sorcerer's Apprentice - Nick Cage does basically a Pirates of the Caribbean and it's a shitload of fun.
    • Drive Angry - More Nick Cage. It's needlessly badass in the dumbest way possible and is hilarious.
  • Anyone else?
  • Just as an FYI, I'm a mod of the sub [email protected]

    Based on our interaction, I've made our new Weekly Thread. You may be able to snag a few more converts... Your post was great and you could always repost it in the thread if you'd care to!

    https://lemmy.ca/post/20869108

  • (WEEKLY) Watch This Movie

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This weekly thread will focus on getting other people to watch movies we love, but others may not have seen or even know about.

    In order to make a recommendation or two, simply let others know an appropriate amount about a movie and why they should give it a chance.

    If you want to deeply discuss one, please remember to use Spoiler tags where applicable!

    Some Starters (and don’t feel you have to speak on all or any of them if you don’t care to):

    • Great bad movies
    • Hilarious garbage for a big group movie night
    • Best genre movies
    • Underrated films
    4
    Anyone else?
  • Full Report: Acquired the movie right after we messaged.

    My wife was working on our book and about ten minutes in wound up putting it down and watching it with me. This is notable because I haven't been able to convince her to watch known great movies with me. She will not watch Lord of the Rings and hasn't found the time to watch Edge of Tomorrow with me since release. She gives no fucks about any Godzilla or King Kong movies. This? Well... the moment the gorilla flipped off The Rock, we were in.

    She had a hard out at 11 PM due to work, but requested I stop and watch the rest with her tomorrow. What the fuck kind of magic shit is this?

    I don't know how to describe it. Maybe it's a bad movie very well told and sold by everyone involved? Everyone was likeable and seemed to be having fun. There were a bunch of solid actors in it we both knew from other things, and (most surprising of all) the comedy actually worked. I'd actually say it was probably one of the best 3 video game movies ever, and I've seen all but 2. I know that may not seem like a lot, but... 14 year old me loved Mortal Kombat at the time, so it's some kind of praise.

    The Nick Cage movie "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" (and maybe also Drive Angry) is one of the only other movies in my collection that I consider in this camp. It's not great cinema, but it's a really awesome ride.

    You sold it 100% accurately, and I really appreciate it!

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I... Am kinda taken aback here and legit don't know what you're referring to. I could delete my posts if it would help?

    I'm sorry if I pushed buttons I should not have, but I genuinely do not grasp the friction here and would very much like to. I was enjoying the discussion and was happy that a thread actually took off for us for once.

    If this is a touchy subject that you would rather move on from, then we will.

  • Either ya understand why most women pick the 🐻 or you are the 🐻.
  • Definitely. When I did all of my forestry work, we were warned about brown bears extensively. Don't get on their territory. If you have to, don't take chances. Don't fuck with them.

    I don't know where the idea comes from that these things will just leave you alone. They will not.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I wanted to make sure I came back to this when I had the time in real life. For what I state, you should know that I was an extremely meek child and hardly a troublemaker.

    • When I lived in Saudi Arabia as a white 14-year old male. I was held at assault rifle point multiple times and robbed.
    • When I lived in Thailand at 15, I was sexually assaulted by a trans-woman.
    • When I lived in Cincinnati at 16, I was beaten by a group of African American kids I went to school with.
    • When I lived near Edmonton at 17, I was beaten by a teacher for missing my homework.
    • When I lived in Medicine Hat at 10, I was punched in the face by a teacher for sitting in the wrong spot.

    None of these are made up or exaggerated experiences. Cruelty wasn't the point of any of these. The point was (in order) robbery, sexual gratification, power, power, and power.

    Misassigning motive is harmful because it stops you from addressing the issues presented and assumes that people are "lost causes." I don't believe that to be the case. You can't fix something where the point is cruelty, because people can't get a fix of cruelty in other ways. You can try to repair other issues however.

    We want the same outcome, but I want to find out how to get there without pushing people out of the solution.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • Why were they acquitted? I have no idea as I was too young at the time to be following trials, but it doesn't mean anything about my previous statement was incorrect.

    People can be cruel, but the goal is not often cruelty. In this instance, the goal for the officers was most likely to regain a feeling of power in my best estimation - a "how dare you not do what I say" attitude and they used cruelty to get it.

    Again, their motivation doesn't explain why they got off, however. I disagree with that decision wholeheartedly.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I could very much see how, by not being able to understand certain situations, someone might assume that cruelty was the point, but it dismisses the reasons a person or group might attempt something. Cruelty is rarely the point.

    The only way we can stop abuses is by doing away with simplistic "chant"-like phrasing and finding the real issues behind things.

    To use your example, policing. It's a complex one, but I can assure you that in no police training ever tells the trainees to be massive dicks and injure every minority they see. The point can be power. The point can be maintaining the letter of the law, and at their sole discretion. The point can be self-preservation out of fear for themselves. We can't know all of them, and they change in the moment depending on the situation.

    If cruelty was the point, then we could just appoint non-cruel people to be officers and the problem is solved, but that isn't the case. We have to address the underlying issues which are different for every officer. That's why it's complex. We can start with systemic corrections such as de-escalation policies being the default, choosing different response teams for different issues, removal of lethal weapons, and harsher punishments for missteps. Those have been found to be effective. But simply hand-waving away things as "cruelty is the point" doesn't help fix the situation, it dismisses it. We must come at bad situations with ways to stop them, not simply be angry at them.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I know it does, and that's a massive pet peeve of mine (if you couldn't tell from other threads). To be clear pre mini-rant, this isn't aimed at you, it's just something that bothers me and I wanted to get it out.

    I think clarity and unity of terms use is one of the major issues that need to be addressed, especially now. It's also one of the reasons I often will add the definition of a term being used in our weekly threads, because I don't like people claiming to be correct because their "personal definition" obscures the truth. We have words. They are effective, powerful, and can be wielded to great effect. Changing what they mean in order to shock with a worse term is a horrible thing to do and is a dumbing-down that serves to undermine the original definition. It makes communication worse.

    I despise forced political movement of words and don't like turning words into the personal equivalent of morality.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I'll probably be using this as next weeks weekly thread, but I would argue that current immigration policies hurt the non-wealthy which would include any white men who aren't wealthy. It's one of the few policies where I don't agree with any political party.

    Not to break into my Econ schooling, but also DEI initiatives, social assistance policies, scholarships, grant funding, many hiring initiatives, and almost everything I experienced in many predominantly non-white countries overseas could be framed as "hurting white men" in the same way the policies you listed above. It really depends on the lens you use to view things.

    Most of these (including things you mentioned) are put into place by the wealthy to maintain things as they are, and yes, some white men are wealthy. I'd remove race and sex from things though and draw the battle lines elsewhere, say "gross and abusive amassing of wealth."

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I don't and would never label non-cruel policies as leftist or liberal, but the phrase is commonly used by those groups. I feel that nearly every group thinks their policies aren't cruel, however.

    "Cruelty" is not always unwarranted, nor is it the same things to every person.

    Remember that German guy that had himself eaten by another years back? That'd seem cruel to me, but it was a fetish for both of them and they didn't think it was cruel at all. It's a moral definition and changes for every person.

    • Some people would call me cruel for having a cat.
    • More would call me cruel for keeping it indoors permanently.
    • But many others would yell at me for allowing outside.
    • Some would give me hell for drinking a glass of milk.

    And all of them can justify their reasons.

    People are quite poor at context and misusing and exaggerating words. I absolutely hate it and feel it's one of our worst traits which is not an exaggeration.

  • Anyone else?
  • I can't believe that you have just convinced me to watch fucking Rampage.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • That is an accurate example, but I don't feel it's true in every case (or even the majority) where the phrase is used.

    For example, many right-wing policies (that I dislike very much) have the phrase in question used in discussions below them. More often than not it's an ineptness, stupidity, lack of knowledge, or something else cause them to feel that the result would be beneficial. Maybe the intended result is power, or something economic, but it's NOT them just trying to be mean.

    I know you know it, but for anyone reading this... Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

    I've spoken to plenty of limited-understanding people all over the world. Many of them are broadly kind and well-meaning and brutally misguided people. Many express regret at any cruelty they "had to" do, but felt their goal justified it.

    Dismissing it as just being shitty to be shitty is stopping people from addressing the underlying issues in the same way that some would dismiss a drug addict as "just an addict" without thinking about addressing underlying issues.

    "He wants to be high because he likes being high." Well, maybe? But probably not, or at very least there's way more to it.

    Hopefully I didn't overstep.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I agree that things done for an many reasons including ineptness, nonscientific views, fear, reactionary politics, poor training, or even doing things from a detached perspective can seem cruel, but the cruelty is not the point. The cruelty is a byproduct, not the goal. It's a bad and oversimplified phrase and in nearly every serves to obfuscates issues.

    For example, knocking down a big tree can seem cruel if you're a squirrel and live there. But if you're a human, maybe you know that that tree was damaged in a storm and is about to fall over and destroy a few homes and potentially kill someone.

    A serial killer torturing a victim? Maybe the power is the goal. Maybe the rush is the goal. The cruelty? It's a means to an end. Understanding goals is how we stop people. Hand-waving away true reasons behind things doesn't help us understand and therefore stop them.

    You can handily cherry-pick examples throughout history of people being outwardly psychotic, and I'd agree with you. However, when used in modern-day political contexts, most of the time it's used in reference to the things I mentioned. Ineptness, fear, nonscientific views, etc.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • I have a shitload of leftist beliefs, but I really hate this phrase and have never seen it used by someone who wasn't left-leaning. I have corrected my initial statement (which is intended to be completely neutral and non-leading) to specify that this is solely my experience with it.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."
  • No, I do not personally believe this. I believe that this phrase is one of the shortest-form strawman "arguments" that exist and is usually spoken by itself with zero justification or understanding of the issue referenced.

    And beside that, it should be obvious that it is very often not true. Most of the time with issues "the point" is cost-saving, stubbornness, cause & effect disagreements, or difference of opinion on how to carry things out. If there is cruelty involved, it is a side-effect, not the point. Even then, the side being accused may feel the cruelty lay on the opposing side because cruelty is a moral argument, and you can not apply morals universally.

    The phrase is like saying "the point of drinking water is to touch your genitals while peeing." It actively avoids the real point in order to make the entire act seem absurd and is a bad faith argument from the jump.

    A good way to find out if "cruelty is the point" is to do a thought experiment. "If they could do / remove the crux of the issue and the perceived oppressed group would still be happy some other way, would this still be an issue?"

    For example (and I am not passing a value judgment here, I'm simply doing the thought experiment with a real-world example), if a state passed an anti-transitioning law, but found a single pain-free pill to remove all dysphoria from the affected group, would they allow that pill? If yes, then the cruelty didn't factor into the decision - the issue and how to deal with it did.

    To be absurdist, if you feel they wouldn't allow the "pill fix", and cruelty is still the point, then why have they not made the suffering worse? They could say "you can have whatever treatment you want, but only if you allow us to torture you for 6 hours per day!"

    If a person eats meat, but is grossed out by factory farming and avoids it, is the point the cruelty or the ease, nutrients, and flavour of a standard omnivorous diet? Rationally, do you really feel that their first thought before biting into a burger is "Fuck this cow, I hope it died screaming."

    No. That would be insane.

    Thinking and speaking in this fashion only removes the ability to deal with difficult situations in a meaningful or rational way and simply shows others that you can't even pretend to fathom other people. It shows that the speaker is not empathetic in the slightest, but sure would like to be perceived as such by their in-group.

  • (WEEKLY) "The Cruelty Is The Point."

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This weekly thread will focus on the phrase "The Cruelty Is The Point", which may take some explanation.

    Frequently on Lemmy (and elsewhere), I see the phrase in comment threads. In my experience, it has been referencing any policy that is contrary to a Liberal or Leftist belief that the thread discusses. I have found the phrase when discussing trans issues, housing, taxes, healthcare, abortion, and many more.

    This does not mean it doesn't exist elsewhere, it is simply where I see it since I spend much of my social media time on Lemmy. If your experience differs, please let us know!

    Some Starters (and don’t feel you have to speak on all or any of them if you don’t care to):

    • Do you believe this? If so, why?
    • Is it true / false in some or all scenarios?
    • Is it with certain groups or regarding certain things?
    • Do you feel that speech like this is conducive to fixing societal issues?
    • Is what is considered "kind" always the best course of action?
    37
    We are currently around 50k monthly active users. What do you think could lead to the next newcomers wave?
  • As I've said since the beginning, I'd like to see more diversification of opinion in the userbase. There are a LOT of people here that are the kind of activist you'd see get banned on Reddit for being hyper-aggressive and it really turns neutral- or otherwise-thinking users off. They don't discuss, they immediately attack and flame and it's not good for building communities around except hyper-focused ones based on those issues specifically.

    I want people who know the reason they think something and don't just have an emotional response and stick with it, then strawman everyone else in the vicinity who deviates.

    As we say in the main Rules for our Community ( [email protected] ), "Not everything is a genocide, and not everyone even slightly to the right of you is a Nazi."

    I also want MUCH better Community controls such as the ability to decorate, and disable downvotes.

  • (WEEKLY) Protests

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This weekly thread will focus on Protests, both effective and ineffective.

    Over the past 15 years, we've seen more protesting since the 1960's in North America. Some feel they are needed, and some feel they are wasteful and silly.

    Some Starters (and don’t feel you have to speak on all or any of them if you don’t care to):

    • Have you ever taken part? What was it and why?
    • What protests have you felt have been effective or ineffective?
    • If you feel they are not effective in general, what would you rather people do?
    • Have you ever had your opinion swayed by any form of protest? Please note that this could be either to the side of the protesters or away from their cause.
    • How would you try to ensure a successful protest?
    • Do you feel that violent protest is mostly uncalled for? If not, how do you know when you need to escalate things?
    • Just for fun, what is the absolute worst protest you've ever heard of?
    5
    (WEEKLY) Work

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This weekly thread will focus on work and work culture.

    This has been a back-burnered issue since COVID came and upended many workplace traditions worldwide, but I'd really like to hear about what you all think about it!

    Some Starters (and don't feel you have to speak on all or any of them if you don't care to):

    • What is the ideal work / life balance? Right now, the worldwide average is 5 days per week, 8-5 PM. Is this too much / too little / just right?
    • With productivity skyrocketing and wages falling, what would you like to see to fix things?
    • Would you accept less money and shorter hours?
    • What would you feel minimum wage should do to adjust?
    • Do you feel that the current resurgence of Unions is positive or negative?
    10
    (WEEKLY / CMV) I should close this community

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    No, it's not a joke. I'm frustrated and I'm probably not choosing my words carefully.

    This community has had steadily falling engagement - our last 3 weekly threads have had a grand total of 1 (excellent and well-articulated) response, and the number of topics not generated by myself (or the other mod) since the inception of the community has also been 1.

    Very few people want to actually talk. From what I've seen, the masses want the same things that they wanted on Reddit:

    1. Memes
    2. Articles they don't read (but will bitch about endlessly) that reinforce their opinion
    3. Angry responses to someone (who may be trolling) that reinforce the current politics of the reader (that they couldn't have given a fuck about a few years ago until it became heavily politicized)
    4. Shitty easy jokes
    5. Personal politics circlejerking

    I hate that I can see a hundredth point-free meme post and view 200 replies on it. I hate that it's just the same talking points being strawmanned over and over again in every thread. I hate that any point outside common groupthink is downvoted to oblivion and buried instead of discussed.

    The reason I'd like to back away from Lemmy seems to be the same reason I started this community: we need more people who can articulate points, and less downvoting, but it doesn't seem to be getting better.

    Maybe one day, but today is not that day. Lemmy needs to mature in more ways than one.

    25
    (WEEKLY) Division

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This weekly thread will focus on current political divisiveness occurring nearly worldwide. I'd post links, but I feel that everyone knows what I'm speaking about.

    This issue has been especially prevalent in American politics as of late, but it is felt nearly everywhere.

    Some Starters:

    • What do you feel has caused it? Add proofs if possible.
    • Once caused, what has added to it and why?
    • What can be done to ameliorate the issue, if anything? On a personal scale or a national one.
    • Can it be remedied or is civil war the only option?
    0
    (WEEKLY) Activism

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This week’s Weekly discussion thread we will focus on Activism, both positive and negative.

    Here is the definition we will be using, so please make sure your argument matches.

    Some starters:

    • What would you classify as effective forms of activism?
    • What are ineffective forms of activism?
    • How does a group know when their mission is achieved? What if the mission is ambiguous or changes over time?
    • Do you feel they stop too early or too late?
    1
    (WEEKLY) One Positive Change

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This week’s Weekly discussion thread will be trying something new. We'll be focusing on the age old question "If you could change one thing positively in the world what would you change?"

    Difficulty Level: (Pick your difficulty, let us know what you picked, and stick to it)

    1. Go wild.
    2. You can't harm others.
    3. The change has to be somewhat realistic or believable.
    4. If I could convince 1,000,000 people right now, it would work.
    5. If I could convince 100,000 people right now, it would work.
    6. Souls Mode: If I could just get motivated, I could do this myself.

    (Also, let me know if these "fun" weeks are welcome here, or just stupid)

    1
    (WEEKLY) Linux and FOSS

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This week’s Weekly discussion thread will be focused on Linux. I know that Lemmy is VERY biased towards Linux and FOSS, but I'm curious what non-technical people feel about it and what your thoughts are.

    Some starters:

    • Have you used Linux? If so, what was your experience like?
    • Would you run it as your primary system? Why or why not?
    • What would it take to get you to do so?
    • Do you feel it's a solid option?
    • Are there any changes that you'd think would benefit consumers and aid with adoption?
    7
    (WEEKLY) Capitalism / Economic Systems

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This week’s Weekly discussion thread will be focused on Capitalism / Economic Systems. Here is the definition we will be using so everyone can use the same terminology. If your argument does not use that definition, we ask that you reframe so that it does so that everyone can work within the same framework.

    Here are some questions that should help kickstart things:

    • Is capitalism effective? Is it good, or as evil as some Lemmy instances will have you believe?
    • Are there better alternatives, and why are they better?
    • How could we realistically move toward those alternatives?
    • Is there anything you do not understand or would like to discuss about Capitalism / Economic Systems?
    24
    (ARTICLE) Racism In D&D

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion). You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    I dislike this article. It's a little old now, but there are several things blisteringly wrong with this idea at its heart.

    Purely for example, if you read a book on dragonflies and take offence because you see racial similarities between whatever race a person is and dragonflies, that's an issue with you, not the source. You are relying on your opinion on what the source says. Since opinion varies per person, you should not dictate policy based on opinion. It's an insurmountable hill to cater to whatever opinions are since opinion will always change - it's an unsound basis for any form of logic.

    Let's do a thought experiment:

    If a trailer-dwelling white person in the USA reads about the Vistani, and takes offence because they also live in a trailer, sees that as a negative, and assumes the Vistani are a potshot at him, is he right to be offended and call for a ban?

    If a nimble Canadian POC (which is also a terrible term as it literally applies to everyone on the planet) reads about Elves and assumes they're talking about him because he also happens to know how to use a bow and is skinny with a lithe frame, is he correct in calling for a ban? What if he sees being nimble as a negative for some reason (because positive / negative characteristics are opinions and what people see as negative is not objective)? What if he sees it as being racist by saying the source is calling ALL Elves nimble and therefore good at sports? "But they stereotypically have a different skin colour!" I hear you saying. So do Orcs. That argument applies here and if you can't square that circle, then the logic falls apart utterly.

    Personal identification with aspects of characters in a source material are not cause for alteration. You are an individual; you are not a group. Grouping people into camps based on visible traits or histories is a disgusting habit.

    Treat people as individuals and racism dies. Treat people as groups and call out the differences constantly and you'll have people fencing themselves in while calling themselves inclusive.

    26
    (WEEKLY) Gender

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion). You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    This week's Weekly discussion thread will be focused on Gender. Here is the definition we will be using so everyone can use the same terminology.

    Here are some questions that should help kickstart things:

    • Why do you feel it started entering public consciousness in regards to humans about 15 years ago?

    • Was it needed?

    • Did it do what it was intended to do?

    • Are things better or worse now in that specific area?

    • Is there anything you do not understand or would like to discuss about the idea of gender?

    14
    (RULES) What is this community?

    First and foremost, let me say that I appreciate you actually engaging in a real discussion on Lemmy!

    WHY?

    This Community was made in response to the rest of Lemmy and the way many otherwise interesting discussion threads fall apart into downvoting, groupthink, and burying of posts composed by people asking for clarification or looking to understand the reasoning behind things.

    We don’t like people making baseless accusations; we defend people on all sides when people are wrong about their opposition. We don't appreciate it when people think they know what others think and project incorrect (and often evil) bullshit on each other. We dislike people being wilfully wrong because their group fetishizes a certain angle of the truth instead of the boring reality of the situation.

    It is important to maintain solid reasoning and conclusions, not just one or the other.

    Ideas and discussion are important. We don’t feel we can get out of the current slump we’re in with political discourse unless we are able to clearly articulate ourselves and discuss the world we're all living in.

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    • Call people names or label people. We fight ideas, not people here.
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    SUBMISSION RULES:

    All main posts should append a bracket tag to the front to describe the topic type:

    • (WEEKLY) Will be reserved for Mods as it will be used for the pinned featured weekly topic thread.
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    • (STEELMAN) is discussion on hard mode and is the opposite of a strawman argument. This is someone making as close to an iron-clad argument as they can for a side or an opinion and challenging you to poke holes in it where you can. These should come with sources already.
    • (OTHER) is, for now, what we call everything else. I think we covered most of it above, but just in case, there's OTHER.

    We would encourage you to also have our Disclaimer bolded at the front to help show how we're different to those coming in from browsing New or All posts which should hopefully help curtailing the drive-by downvoting that was so common in our early days:

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    And finally, none of these are so set in stone that we can't change them. If you want to see adjustments or changes, let us know here or in Private Message!

    0
    (Open-Ended) How would you change this Community?

    So now that we've been around for a week or so and have tried to populate things with some controversial topics, how would you like to see this Community grow and change?

    Should I add post guidelines? Maybe adjust the pinned thead?

    Should I change the rules at all?

    Our disclaimer is currently:

    Remember: Up / Downvoting in this community is not an agree / disagree button. We upvote good or constructive conversation and downvote off-topic posts or badly-voiced opinions. If you disagree, you respond like a human in good faith and prove out your position.

    Should the disclaimer be changed? It's primarily for people wandering in from viewing All threads (instead of just their subscribed ones), or for people on phones who never read the sidebar. It is there to show, in point form, how we operate to people who don't come to us purposefully.

    Are there any topic you'd really like to see covered?

    Are there any other Communities we should do a link swap with that have a similar ethos with?

    Are there types of threads you want to see less or more of? More descriptors?

    I'm open to any and all good ideas!

    14
    (Open-Ended) New Political Parties?

    Remember: Up / Downvoting in this community is not an agree / disagree button. We upvote good or constructive conversation and downvote off-topic posts or badly-voiced opinions. If you disagree, you respond like a human in good faith and prove out your position.

    The amount of "left-right" entrenchment seems to be at an all-time high and increasing.

    No matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on, what would it take to get you to vote for a new party?

    Would implementing a better electoral system that would eliminate the two-party see-saw and allowing for more granularity in candidates help (See Single Transferable Vote or STAR depending on the type of election)?

    Do you have other solutions to this issue?

    6
    (CMV) "Doing your own research."

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    I have found that many people "doing their own research" are only searching for confirmation to their beliefs, and also seem to have a misunderstanding about what "research" actually entails.

    If you're a rational thinker and you believe you have a source that makes a good point, you'll simply link that source directly, and maybe even explain how it supports the thing you believe. However, if you're a conspiracy theorist who only has bad sources that can be easily disproven, you'll become wary about linking to those sources directly or trying to explain what they mean to you, lest someone in the discussion completely blow your argument apart and laugh at you.

    That's why the imperative appeal to "do your own research" has developed - whether intentional or not, it's a tailor-made strategy to protect bad sources (and bad thinking) from criticism. By telling people to do their own research rather than being up front about your sources and arguments, you try to push people into learning about the topic you want them to internalize while there are no dissenting voices present. It's a tactic that separates discussion zones from "research" zones, so that "research" can't be interrupted by reality.

    People who actually have good points with good sources don't need to do this. It's only the people who are clinging onto bad, debunkable sources (or simple feelings) that need to vaguely tell people to "do their own research". The actual scientific method is "help me disprove this theory. Only when we all fail can we consider this theory good enough for now, but we will continue looking for other theories that explain things better, and then try and disprove those too".

    No researcher tells another researcher on a level playing field to do their own research. They say, "What have you found? Let's discuss it." This is the way progress is made. There's a reason we're calling all this the culture wars and not the new renaissance.

    Hell, even culture war is generous branding. It's people living in reality against a loose coalition of people who just generally don't like them because they've been trained to by the moneyed interests who have spent the last 30 years building a propaganda machine to weaponize them for political and financial gain.

    The truly strange part is that the research you do as a civilian does not matter. If you somehow got a degree and ran an absolutely bulletproof years-long study in CURRENT THING, the people telling you to "do your own research" would be exactly the people who would not believe you because it would go against their preconceptions. They don't care about research, they care about belief.

    Looking things up online that conform to your viewpoint is not research, it is a means to entrench yourself.

    Let's Do An Experiment!

    Right. So by your downvotes, I see that you don't understand why the scientific method necessitates disregarding personal experience. Let's show you an extremely simplified but basic example:

    Let's say that a person believes that cats simply do not exist.

    Oh, they've seen cats before, but they think they're just really small people covered in carpet and refuse to believe any evidence to the contrary.

    Everyone else knows that cats exist; we know there is something wrong with this person.

    Regardless, the person decides to do an "experiment" to prove it. They walk into their living room, glue carpet to their spouse, and then claim victory. They then document it stating that in their personal experience, they proved the one cat they found in the area was just a person with carpet glued to them. They gather support online, and publish it in a for-pay journal. The article is never peer-reviewed because the person refused to tell of their methodology, but people repost the "study".

    If science operated in a fashion that the "do your own research" people felt, then we should all believe this person.

    Just because a single person has never seen a cat, or chooses not to acknowledge cats, doesn't mean that factually cats do not exist. Even organizing a poor experiment and claiming they have done "research" does not make them correct. The burden of proof is still present, and a poor experiment is often blown apart in the scientific community or unrepeatable. This is why peer-review without an agenda is incredibly important.

    If everything someone "saw with their own eyes" were true, then ghosts, aliens, demons, every God that has ever been worshipped (even though they preclude each other), mythical creatures, and countless other things are all true. All of them. That, or there is a flaw in the logic you are using.

    Also, to most of the people here who will no doubt not read this as it may challenge your world view - plugging your ears and screaming as loud as you can to drown out the world does not make truth vanish.

    Being insulting, blocking, or downvoting doesn't mean that you're correct.

    I like to believe that people can be reached and the only outcome isn't just shit-throwing matches and all-out war. However, if you're not willing to debate in good faith, then there is no debate.

    You have lost at the outset by not being willing to be incorrect.

    23
    (CMV) Political Leaders

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    I've said that many current political movement and party leaders aren't liars, what do I mean?

    Well, they don't lie, per se.

    They bullshit. Which, frankly, is worse.

    A successful liar must construct a lie carefully, and must first know the truth. Because the lie must be different from the truth, meant to conceal it. To lie successfully is to distinguish reality from fiction and attempt to convince the other person that one is the other, but always knowing yourself which is actually correct. The facts matter to the liar.

    But these people do not do that. They bullshit. In order to further their goals, any actions and any words are permissible, because they see themselves as inherently good (and that goes for narrative and reality). In order to gain an advantage in the immediate "now", anything can be said. To them, it doesn't matter if it's truth or lie, as long as it serves their purpose right now. They craft a situation, a story, narrative, a reality, in which they convince The Other (and even their own) that they are right and good. You see, they must always be right because they are good. The narrative itself need not be consistent or even coherent.

    Think of the hundreds of bizarre conspiracy theories in which they are the secret heroes opposing evil. Pizzagate, Satanists, autism vaccines, Qanon, baby-eating liberals, flat Earthers, you name it. Those aren't lies in the traditional sense of the word. Those are a constant, desperate struggle to be the Good side at all times in spite of evidence to the contrary, and without concerns about what is real and what isn't. Unlike with lying, the facts, truth, and objective reality don't matter here. They can be substituted and changed on a whim - the infamous "alternative facts." That is what bullshitting is.

    Debating real-life issues with them becomes futile because their reality is completely fluid and can change in an instant. One day an "engineered bio-weapon Chinese death virus funded by the Clinton Foundation" is going to kill us all, and the next day it's just a harmless flu. Not because if anything they learned, but because of how it makes them feel, and as I've said again and again since age 14, feelings are the enemy of logic.

    But if it suits their immediate needs, then something like COVID is a Chinese-Clinton-Gates bioweapon again. And if they don't feel like wearing a mask in the store, it's just a flu again. Or it could be a hoax and Fauci made it up. Doesn't matter as long as the bullshit helps them in the immediate situation. Maybe they believe it, maybe they don't. They can even apply a form of doublethink to believe two or more contradicting realities simultaneously.

    Disregard objective reality, absorb only the reality you choose to take in. One moment Democrats / Liberals / "The Elite" (but only the ones they don't like) run a global vampiric cabal that rules the world from the shadows in humanity's single greatest feat of secrecy, and the next moment they're bumbling idiots who can't tie their shoelaces, unfit to govern anything.

    Climate scientists are making billions by convincing people that climate change is real, and at the same time are a bunch of poor hippie losers stuck in a dead end university job. And those stats that you can measure yourself? Uhhh... SHUT UP! WHY'S THERE STILL SNOW THEN, SMART GUY?! Biden is a weak coward bending over for anything Putin says, and simultaneously a warmonger who's destroying good relationships with Russia and starting WWIII.

    Jan. 6 protesters in jail are good, innocent people who are victims of a witch hunt, because Jan. 6 were just peaceful tourists. And they were also violent BLM actors performing a false flag operation. The fact that those rioters filmed and so outed themselves is not in their advantage to say because it goes against the narrative, and so it doesn't enter that reality.

    A liar wouldn't get away with such internal inconsistencies in their crafted alternate reality. They would immediately be found out, and they would be a terrible liar because a lie needs that internal consistency to be believable. But with bullshitting, the concept of truth never even played a part in it from the very beginning. Bullshitters don't care if you believe them or not. Their reality is whatever they want it to be at any given time. They are no longer part of "consensus reality", that which everyone can show, see, and test to be objectively true. And being detached from consensus reality is an extremely dangerous position to be in for further radicalization. They become unable to distinguish fact from fiction anymore, and can eventually turn their imaginary beliefs into real actions. Like shooting up the Pizzagate place. Bombing abortion clinics. Breaking into Pelosi's home and assaulting her husband with a hammer. Trying to kidnap a governor.

    Those people you saw in the news had already left consensus reality long ago, and they were without a doubt True Believers in whatever new reality they found themselves in.

    Whether they created that new reality themselves or whether it was pre-made and spoon-fed to them is another matter.

    11
    (Open Ended) Combating Disinformation

    Remember: Up / Downvoting in this community is not an agree / disagree button. We upvote good or constructive conversation and downvote off-topic posts or badly-voiced opinions. If you disagree, you respond like a human in good faith and prove out your position.

    I'm going to keep this apolitical and not talk about any side in specific, but how does a government tell the truth when people don't want to hear it? I want some actual discussion from this ESPECIALLY from those who think the Government correcting anyone on anything is censorship because the logic doesn't seem to be cohesive.

    Let's say somebody fucked up badly and now you (yes you) are a leader of whatever federal government side you'd like and your side happens to be in power.

    Someone posts a blog article on a social media site that says "(YOUR NAME HERE) Is Going To Kill Us All And Does Horrible Things To Animal Butts". It's filled with all kinds of scathing insults and made up crap that you didn't do. It focuses on the fact that you went on a vacation last year for a week. But the blog post says that it wasn't a vacation, it was a trip to plan how to kill everyone and put things into animal butts. So many things. Gross things. You've not done anything they're talking about, but people DO know that you had a vacation.

    It continues to get shared enough that opinion-based media sites start covering it. Not saying it's true, simply covering the initial post and saying that someone else says it's true. That way they can't be sued, y'see. Someone posts a badly photoshopped picture of you with one hand holding a stack of paperwork with the title "Secret Government Plan #127 - How to Murder Everyone I don't Like and Continue Molesting Animals." It's badly edited, but dumb people continue to share it because they don't like you and some people are calling it real.

    You release an official statement stating your innocence, but the people who are on the opposite political side from you are saying you're lying. They want to have you stand trial. You've done nothing, but some are already saying you're using your power to NOT have to stand trial otherwise the police would have stopped you. Some are saying the police are in on it! So... how do you solve this?

    How, as a government in power, do you combat disinformation spread by people who genuinely don't know or care what the truth is?

    And I mean something long term, true, and without pissing off half the population because you're "telling them how to think" (even if "how they think" is just made up bullshit designed to piss them off and emotionally manipulate them).

    > How, as a government in power, do you combat disinformation spread by people who genuinely don’t know or care what the truth is?

    In short, how, as a government in power, do you combat disinformation spread by people who genuinely don’t know or care what the truth is without outright censorship?

    19
    (CMV) A.I.

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    PREFACE:

    These dumb chat "A.I." programs are... not A.I. and even people selling it even recognize that.

    THE CRUX:

    We don't have real A.I. - we have generative models trained on massive amounts of data which in effect attempts to compress it down into a trained model which it can run to try and regenerate answers based on the data it was trained from. It is a lossy compression, as the model itself is too small to contain the whole of the information it ingests. As such it makes things up along the way in order to fill in the blanks. You can see this in how chat models like ChatGPT will confidently give you incorrect information. Researchers call this "hallucinating".

    The model doesn't actually have any core understanding of the material it ingests - it can't, since it isn't actually an artificial intelligence. It can infer what things should look like, and it can do so well enough now to start fooling humans into thinking it knows what it's doing. We're in the 'uncanny valley' of generative language and code models. So that's one problem. It makes things up without understanding it, and can't reliably reproduce correct answers, only things that kinda look correct.

    It's absolutely infuriating to people who actually understand the technology that we've taken to calling it "AI" at all. It's a stupid techbro marketing stunt and unfortunately for all of us it has stuck, and as a result we now all have to call it A.I., and only those of us with the right tech background to know better will understand just how misleading that label is.

    The output is still garbage, but it's dangerously believable garbage.

    Remember all those shitty chat bots that circulated around for a while? This is just that, but way more complex and easier to mistake for real intelligence. Imagine now, if you will, an internet full of such chat bots all set up by techbros and lazy hacks trying to cash in on the sudden easy ability to generate 'content' that can get past regular spam filters at a rate so fast that no human team can keep up with checking it all, and they're pulling this stuff down from the internet en masse to train their buggy models, then submitting it back to places that are indexed online where the next set of buggy models can ingest it, like an infinite Ouroboros of shit, so next thing you know you can't trust a damn thing you read anywhere, because it's all garbage generated from other people's garbage, and companies like IBM and Microsoft are even getting in on it.

    And because the models learn based on statistical trends and averages over a large set of data? Guess what? This huge flood of new "A.I." generated data is now the norm, and as such it takes precedence over human generated data that by natural limitations cannot keep up with the speed at which the A.I. generated data is flooding the internet.

    That's basically what's happening now. Because the average person making decisions about how to leverage this new, lucrative technology for profit doesn't understand (or care to understand) how it works or why it's a bad idea. All they see is the short term dollar signs from getting leg up on the competition by churning huge quantities of shit out faster and cheaper than any human can, in a market where increasingly only quantity matters, not quality.

    It's already replacing journalists and authors as newspapers and publishing houses are getting backed up with a flood of "AI" generated submissions from people trying to cash in on it. A huge amount of recent content on the internet is entirely made up, imagined by these models, and very difficult to tell apart from actual researched information by real knowledgeable experts. Throwing this into the mix with the already problematic ecosystem of disinformation from entities like Cambridge Analytica, and even writing children's books to help human children learn to read? The future is very bleak indeed.

    THINGS I HAVEN'T SPOKEN ABOUT (or only alluded to):

    • The massive power usage
    • Putting it into software that absolutely does not need it
    • "Necromancing" dead people for clicks
    • Making search nigh-unusable
    • Further reducing the value of actual writers
    • Mass layoffs because the idiots in charge think the tech can replace people (Spoiler - no, it can't)
    • You know those shitty auto-generated "Radiant AI" quests in Skyrim that everyone hated? You know how whenever there's a randomly generated room in a game how you can tell just by looking at it that it wasn't designed with any semblance of thought? Like that but they want to use it for everything in games now.

    Some Sources:

    A ‘Shocking’ Amount of the Web Is Already AI-Translated Trash, Scientists Determine

    How Bad Are Search Results?

    16
    (CMV) Overpopulation

    Reminder: This post is from the Community Actual Discussion. You’re encouraged to use voting for elevating constructive, or lowering unproductive, posts and comments here. When disagreeing, replies detailing your views are appreciated. For other rules, please see this pinned thread. Thanks!

    Ignoring all political factors, I believe that overpopulation is real. Whilst it is true that the planet has enough physical space for billions more people than exist right now, it does not have the natural resources to support billions more.

    Focusing on a singular issue that faces global civilization that highlights what I mean - food.

    Current food production is heavily reliant on fossil fuel derived fertilizers. It's commonly accepted that oil production will peak and eventually decline if it has not done so already. Some argue that it has, some say it is imminent. Nonetheless, eventually oil production will become exponentially more expensive as demand increases and supply shrinks and thus anything that relies on oil derived fuels or products will also become more costly. Global farming is reliant on oil derived fuels such as diesel and petroleum for the tilling, planting, fertilizing, spraying of insecticides and harvesting of crops. Not to mention transportation, processing, packaging and preparation. Natural gas, the most important input for the production of fertilizers is required during the Haber-Bosch process. Natural gas is also a finite fossil fuel subject to the same limitations as oil.

    If we then look at the macro landscape we also learn that top soil, the soil that crops are grown in is being eroded by constant farming processes, poor land management and natural processes. It is estimated that at the current rate of erosion there could be no top soil left globally within 60 years. If I remember correctly, topsoil is being eroded approximately ten times faster than it can be replaced.

    Now there are arguments to be made that we could reduce wastage, reduce demand and manage land better. Doing these things could buy extra time for a static or shrinking population.

    Anyway, the point is that the global population rising means that there is more demand for food. Our ability to produce more food to satisfy the extra demand of a growing population is being reduced due to the factors I've mentioned above and these are only a subset of a far greater set of issues we face.

    The idea that we can continue to grow the population further and that the planet can support this indefinitely is not reasonable. There are limits to growth in finite systems.

    Population growth means that there are more people that both want and need a slice of the pie. The problem is there's only a limited amount of pie available. We can slice that pie into ever smaller pieces and we can even redistribute the pie that exists more equitably. This will help keep people fed in the short term but not in the long term.

    The problem is that the pie is going to shrink and the baker isn't going to be able to get enough ingredients to make more. Eventually the pie will be gone.

    In our analogy eventually there will be no pie to go around and everyone goes home hungry.

    This means that we end up with a predicament without a solution that I am aware of.

    It is far more likely that globally populations will continue to rise until we overshoot our constrained resources. Once that happens human population levels will drop, whether there is intervention or not.

    What do you feel about overpopulation?

    7
    AceTKen Ace T'Ken @lemmy.ca

    I advocate for logical and consistent viewpoints on controversial topics. If you're looking at my profile, I've probably made you mad by doing so.

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