What do we think of the new Monk?
What do we think of the new Monk?
So Monk is the one class we didn't get a prior UA for, which means all the changes are totally new. I'm still wrapping my head around it. Martial Arts die increase: good. Martial Arts die not affecting weapons: bad. Step of the Wind buff: good. Stunning Strike nerf: bad but reasonable?
I feel like they knew Monks needed help, but it doesn't really seem like they made as much effort to fix that as I think they really needed to. Anything I might be missing that saves the Class here?
Saw a comment yesterday that really rung true to me about monk: "We finally have a versatile, interesting monk! .....All it took was for it to be a bard subclass" (referring to the college of dance, which gets unarmored defense and unarmed strikes)
On a serious note, though, overall the monk is pretty bleh IMO. It nerfed the monks strongest ability (stunning strike), which was not unexpected, but it gets little in the way to make up for it, which i feel is going to leave the monk behind overall.
At least 4 elements looks like it could actually be fun, now.
The new 4 elements looks awesome. The ability to switch damage types will be super fun to avoid resistances and pile on vulnerabilities which really supports team play and in game research which I love. I love the crown control with the push and pull on these strikes at 10 ft. which is also a great teamwork play.
Yea Bard is absolutely nuts in this UA. The gap between Bard and Monk was pretty huge already, but now you can really feel it.
I agree, Stunning Strike nerf isn't unreasonable but they needed to make up for it better than they did.
I love the college of dance. It looks like so much fun to play and able to support in such a new unique way. It was the combo that I didn't know I wanted.
So that’s why the boosted the martial arts die! So it wasn't straight up outclassed by bardically inspired fists. 😂
They also nerfed weapons.
You get mastery, but since they no longer follow your martial arts die, by 5th level you need to 2H wield a staff or spear just to keep up with the damage progression. Then you get force damage on unarmed strikes at level 6…Unless your dm blesses you with a suitable magic simple weapon, or you really want the mastery effects, you are disincentivized from using weapons entirely. Which stinks if you want to theme your monk around a signature weapon a la TMNT.
Let’s break down mastery on simple weapons while we are at it.
- Flex: You can’t use a shield for un armored defense or movement anyway. This property is useless unless you need a free arm to carry the MacGuffin or a companion. I don’t think grappling technically requires a free hand either.
- Nick: Could be useful at low levels. You get an extra attack on top of your bonus action strikes. It’s only applies to d4 weapons and you don’t get the Dex bonus to damage. 2d4+Dex is marginally better than 1d8+Dex on average. If you can get the two weapon fighting style, then you can keep this relevant at later levels.
- Push: Only the great club has the 2H property so you can’t use your Dex to attack…
- Sap: Good against martial enemies.
- Slow: Good at range if you want to get away or catch up, but you are already faster than most and can stun or grapple. The club is a good situational combo with the new Step of the Wind👌 if you need to escape melee.
- Vex: Good at range. For melee, is it worth the damage reduction to get advantage on your next unarmed strike? The advantage only applies to you.
Speaking of grappling, using Dex instead of Strength for grapple really needs to be added to Martial Arts
I'm lukewarm on it. By my measure, the critical flaw in the monk's design is stunning strike. Any discussion on the monk that I've had has invariably been pulled to that singular ability.
It's an incredibly swingy ability that only costs one point. As a result all monks need to weigh all their point-cost abilities against it, and in combat either the monk is a mediocre contributor or they undermine the whole encounter by disabling key actors. SS was nerfed, but I'd like to see a version where it was removed entirely and it's power was distributed throughout the class.
A key compromise that I think would be healthy is to transplant stunning strike into a subclass. That way players who enjoy that playstyle can opt for it, and DMs who dislike running games for those builds can disallow them at their table.
As for all the other details, I'm uncertain. There are some improvements, but it's hard not to see the system bending over backwards and straining to fit around stunning strike.
I like the monk as the class who applied status conditions to enemies. The guy who runs around the battlefield who supports his allies but debuffing the enemies. So stun works with that fantasy but if it's in a subclass like open hand that allows the others to have a cool signature ability at like 5th level.
Since I doubt that will happen I enjoy the changes now. You can do stun once and then use your discipline points elsewhere.
I can agree that Stunning Strike was bad design, for sure.
It's interesting when you compare the Monk to casters, who typically also have incap abilities that cost a resource. While I don't think casters are designed perfectly either, a caster isn't useless if they can't use their incap spell on an enemy (through immunity or high saves or whatever) whereas a Monk that can't stun is doing really nothing but subpar damage. Casters usually spend more of their resources on an incap spell, and they sure aren't spamming it three times per round. Hypnotic pattern can still cause ridiculous swinginess when it comes to balancing fights of course, so maybe it's not the best benchmark anyway.
With that in mind, I think Stunning Strike should probably be less spammy (which is the main part of what they did) but obviously it needs to be made up for by making the rest of the Monk much better, which I don't feel was really achieved here.
I absolutely agree with you on the Stunning Strike matter. The nerf has helped - it's gone from "Use almost all my Ki on Stunning Strike." to "What can I afford to use Ki on while Stunning Strike is on cooldown?" But it's still the wrong kind of question to be asking, and IMO it's exactly the kind of debilitating ability that makes DnD unfun.
The Stunning Strike Nerf is a good thing. Damages appear to be reasonable:
- 2d6 + 2DEX at level 1
- 2d6 + 2DEX any number of times at level 2
- 3d6 + 3DEX twice a short rest at level 2
- 4d8 + 4DEX five times a short rest at level 5
- (changes to Force - the least resisted damage type in 5E at level 6, as an option)
- 4d10 +4DEX eleven times a short rest at level 11
- 4D12 + 4DEX seventeen times a short rest at level 17
These assume you're using Discipline for Flurry of Blows, which isn't always possible. They also assume a 100% hit rate, but what's fantastic on all these also is that it's multiple attack rolls. It is possible, but unlikely, you'll miss all the attacks. You have a really good chance of getting at least one nat 20 in your rolls. I usually prefer multiple attack rolls.
Also, for the first 5 levels - you can snag a D8 Simple Weapon (most simples are D6 or lower, none are above a D8) to improve damage, and you can opt for the mastery attack and effect that goes with it - and you can change masteries at a long rest.
And note, these aren't counting using various feats to get bonus damage, buffs, etc. I would argue that I think overall there are not enough Discipline points before around level 8-10 and there are too many after level 16 or so. But that's just me (since it's a short rest resource, and given the change to stunning strike, it seems less likely that you'd ever need 20 points)
And this keeps in mind you can still layer an Eldritch Claw Tatoo, for example, on top of these damages. This likely wants the same change as other current abilities (one bonus damage a round, versus one bonus damage a hit), but used as written right now - it would add a d6 to each hit and increase reach to 15'. But I mean, we'll be seeing those items in games for years to come - and it seems unlikely all current magic items will be absorbed into the DMG.
Can you master a dagger to get Nick and get the extra attack and flurry of blows? Would be cool.
That is pretty good actually! Though I can see some Monks disliking that they have to optimally use a weapon and not stay unarmed. Cool for a ninja-themed Shadow Monk though.
Each night, you can pick two simple weapons to master. A dagger is a simple weapon. It also uses your martial arts die for damage, just as it would today for Dedicated Weapon or Kensai.
Here is Nick:
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action, instead of as a Bonus Action. You can still make this extra attack only once per turn.
At level 1, there is a bonus unarmed attack on Monk - since that is not the Light property on a Weapon, that bonus unarmed attack can still be used. Flurry of Blows is also not the Light property on a weapon, and so it'd also be open - assuming you took Two-Weapon Fighting, you would make that attack with your ability modifier and your martial arts die.
And so that would increase all the numbers by the martial arts die, and then by the attribute modifier as well if you had two-weapon fighting. This would put it very much comparable to the Warlock Baseline that was recently posted here.
A friend once told me, it was for Xcom and EverQuest back in the day, that there's a secret in all games. I will share his wisdom. "When you don't hit, things don't die." So, if you're looking at anything that improves a hit rate - it will tend to improve your damage over time more than something that merely improves damage, unless the damage boost is ridiculously overpowered.
To me, this is the principal behind a lot of high damage builds - of any class - the principal of "my attack bonus is high, and I roll the die many times." And that's because consider Disintegrate, for example. It is a great spell - it does a lot of damage. But it is all or nothing - either the spell gets you or it doesn't. Again - it's a great spell, but either it works or it doesn't - and if it doesn't you deal none of that damage and may not have the spell slots to try again.
If you look at the Monk - there's another thing to consider here, which is stunning strike.
When a creature is stunned, you get advantage on attacks and prevent it from doing anything, so you can attack.
I think what you're largely missing is how the damage ceiling has come down due to the removal of many methods that optimizers would use to stack a lot of damage into a single turn.
Given that, the lack of damage increase is either fine, or only slightly sub-par.
Hmm, true, the bar is lower across the board, now, isn't it? Might have to readjust my expectations.
I like the changes overall with the reduction of damage from the few optimal options with an increase for everyone else. A single good choice is really no choice. I really enjoyed the higher martial arts die since 1d4 was so too low.
The best change to the Monk is the inclusion of Heightened Metabolism. The decrease of time down to 1 minute works for both groups who never take short rest, those who reduced short rest time to 10 minutes and those that take a hour. 1 minute is so short that most groups can just slip one in anymore. Also since the monk can really use it recharge whenever just the monk needs it
Agreed. But it should come online sooner; when you need that most is when you have almost no ki.
Yeah. It works be great as a 5th level feature like bards get. I'm sure they don't since they get extra attack
Where can you read it?
in the latest unearthed arcana. Check the link in the post here: https://ttrpg.network/post/36089
Ty.
I prefer the new stunning strike changes since the old stunning strike was just too good to not use all of your ki points. I prefer having different valid ways to spend ki (discipline) point
I am amazed WotC managed to take weakest class in the game and find a way to STRIP ALL GOOD THINGS IT HAD GOING FOR IT! And then, to add insult to injury, they put a Bard subclass whose whole thing is "Be better Monk than the Monk" in the same UA.
At this point we should just ask them to make Monk a half-caster because that's the only way anyone at WotC will actually care about the class.
I'm underwhelmed and disappointed by the changes to the base class.
However, the monk actually works fairly well as a hit and run skirmisher now without having to rely on the Mobile feat or sacrificing damage with patient defense or step of the wind, thanks to the subclass abilities.
Shadow can rely on Darkness to move away without getting hit. Elements gets reach. Open Hand got shafted, since Addle rely on saves to be able to safely move away.Monks still have too few Dicipline points until around level 7-8.
Monks are still very MAD. They need Dex, Wis, Con. Add in Str if they want to grapple.
Increased martial arts die is a good change. Too bad it no longer applies to weapons.
Access to mastery is "alright". Vex is probably the best option. I don't think the other options available to monks are very useful, unless the monk gets access to two weapon fighting style for Nick. The fact that monks can't apply mastery to their unarmed strikes is a huge missed opportunity imo.
Stunning strike nerf was needed, but maybe they nerfed it too hard. It used to last until the end of the monks next turn, now it lasts until the start of the monks next turn. Maybe limiting the attmepts to once per turn is enough?
Hightened metabolism is ok. But it's weird how they attempt to get rid of and solve short rest mechanics when a easier fix would just be to shorten short rests. When you get access to this, the Dicipline point problem is mostly over anyway.
Self restoration as a bonus action instead of a action is alright, even if it's pushed back to level 10. Better hope you can still use your bonus action when subjected to those conditions. Why not make it a reaction when subjected to those conditions? And why did monks lose their immunity to poison? I loved that.
What would I change? I'm not sure but here are some suggestions. They are probably not balanced.
Sever the ties to "east asian" monks completely and remove reliance on WIS.
Monk Save DC should be based on Dex, Unarmed defense should be 10 + Dex + Con, Monks are no longer MAD. I don't think this will happen, but it will solve a lot of issues IMO.
More Dicipline points in the early levels. They should start with at least 4 at level 2.
Allow Monks to use their Dex for Jumps and Grapples.
Martial arts die should also apply to weapons. Monks should be able to apply some of the masteries to their unarmed attacks.
Stunning strike. Since Stun is too good, rename the feature and have it apply another condition, like Daze or Incapacitated. Maybe make it only cost Dicipline if the effect actually works.
Hightened metabolism. Since they refuse to shorten short rests to like 10-15 min, make this usable twice between long rests.
Self-Restoration. Make it a reaction when subjected to the conditions. Maybe add a Dicipline cost.
Give back poison immunity.
Open Hand Technique should be able to be used with all unarmed strikes, not just from flurry of blows. Addle should not require a save.Hightened metabolism is ok. But it's weird how they attempt to get rid of and solve short rest mechanics when a easier fix would just be to shorten short rests. When you get access to this, the Dicipline point problem is mostly over anyway.
I think getting heightened metabolism at 5th level would solve a lot of problems. It would allow for early monks to get another quick rest to recharge at low levels when it's needed the most. I would move stunning strike to 7 to use it when there's enough points to go around. This will get players more uses of their non stunning abilities without them feeling like a trap options
I never really like the idea of using two stat bonuses calculating your entire AC in 5e. It's a holdover from earlier editions, when getting stat boosts through stacking bonuses from magic items, spells, and potions would allow for very high scaling.
There's a clear direction from all the rewritten subclasses, in that each one contains a method of either pushing away your target when you hit them in a variety of ways, or providing clear ways of disengaging from melee. Maybe this should just be placed in the base class, that 1/turn any Monk gets to push a target away that is struck with an unarmed attack, like the 'Shove' feature of the Tavern Brawler feat? Or maybe just giving Monk the 'shove' weapon mastery to all unarmed attacks, and the Monk gets to add other specific masteries as they level up?