If Trump wins the election thru fraud how can the democrats refute it and prove they won? Or will it just be like another Jan 6 and four years of whining like Trump?
If Trump wins the election thru fraud how can the democrats refute it and prove they won? Or will it just be like another Jan 6 and four years of whining like Trump?
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The scary thing about elections is that, by design, nobody can ever "prove" they won.
Votes are designed to be anonymous. They have to be. If they're not, they're very vulnerable to manipulation. If someone can prove how they voted, then they can either be bribed to vote a certain way, or threatened to vote a certain way. If you can check that your vote was counted successfully for the candidate you chose, then someone else can check that you voted for the candidate they chose.
That means that, by design, the only security that elections can have is in the process. In a small election, like 1000ish votes or fewer, someone could supervise the whole thing. They could cast their vote, then stand there and watch. They could watch as other people voted, making sure that nobody voted twice, or dropped more than one sheet into the box. They could watch as the box was emptied. Then, they could watch as each vote was tallied. Barring some sleight-of-hand, in a small election like that, you could theoretically supervise the entire process, and convince yourself that the vote was fair.
But, that is impossible to scale. Even for 1000 votes, not every voter could supervise the entire process, and for more than 1000 votes, or votes involving more than one voting location, it's just not possible for one person to watch the entire thing. So, at some point you need to trust other people. If you're talking say 10,000 votes, maybe you have 10 people you trust beyond a shadow of a doubt, and each one of you could supervise one process. But, the bigger the election, the more impossible it is to have actual people you know and trust supervising everything.
In a huge country-wide election, there's simply no alternative to trust. You have to trust poll workers you've never met, and/or election monitors you've never met. And, since you're not likely to hear directly from poll workers or election monitors, you have to instead trust the news source you're using that reports on the election. In a big, complex election, a statistician may be able to spot fraud based on all the information available. But, if you're not that statistician, you have to trust them, and even if you are that statistician, you have to trust that your model is correct and that the data you're feeding it is correct.
Society is built on trust, and voting is no different. Unfortunately, in the US, trust is breaking down, and without trust, it's just a matter of which narrative seems the most "truthy" to you.
This makes me think we are on the same path as many countries who routinely have significant civil conflict every election cycle.
Not a great look for a country. Not a great group to join. Yet here we are.
You know how people outside the USA vote? They go there, show their ID, get a tick on the list of voters, and do the voting.
Same as inside the USA.
Interesting, given the stories of people voting several times by just going to different places.
Oi, no you have to have your name on the rolls and there is a dedicated building were you as an individual are required to cast your vote. Go the the wrong building and you wont be on the roll.
You can vote multiple times if you own homes in multiple states but:
- Its very time consuming.
- Its very very illegal.
- Its very easy to catch. Since they sign you in.
Interesting. Thank you. How do you ID?
When you register to vote you generally ID. at the polls you just give your name and address. generally everyone in the room lives in the area. I certainly know who are my neighbors. you can of course lie about who you are, and you might even be able to cast that vote; if someone doesn't call you on it. but if that person shows up shit is going to hit the fan.
go work an election as a poll worker.
"stories". Yes. Fascist media is full of stories.
Yes, and again, it's all based on trust.
How is trust involved in that process?
Can you prove that your vote was counted and that the number of votes for your candidate went up by one as a result? If you can't prove it, then it's based on trust.
That's on the level of "everything could be made up to fool me" or matrix kind of stuff. You can simply be a poll worker yourself.
Hardly. Historically there has been a lot of cheating in elections. Look at Chicago up to the 1970s. Election fraud was common there.
Nobody can prove that there's less cheating in Chicago elections today than in the 1970s, but people trust that it's more honest.
In France we get an anonymous code and we can plug it into a website and it tells us if our ballot was counted or not, and if it wasn’t counted why. (markings on ballott, multiple candidates selected for one spot, etc.)
Right, but no way to verify who you voted for.
And, you have to trust that the website is telling you the truth. You have no way of verifying that it always gives the same answer to everybody. I guess someone could test that there's some connection to their real ballot by intentionally screwing up their ballot. But, that doesn't mean that there's any way to prove that when it's counted that the actual tally for the person / people you voted for are going up not down.
They can tell who votes. Your entire premise is based on a belief that votes are anonymous. They aren't. They are pretected from the public. If you have ever worked in election, which I have, you would know that. You have to cross reference if someone voted twice, are alive, or even registered in the county they voted in. There are computers that verify electronic bullets and there are batch audits. No one is ever allowed to be alone even with one ballet. Everything is done in a team. If your partner calls in sick, you're the third wheel to another team.
Just because the public doesn't know doesn't mean the government doesn't know.
Votes are anonymous. You can tell who voted, but not what they voted for. It's crucial for the fairness of elections that a vote cannot be definitively connected to the individual who cast it; if you could, you could coerce or retaliate.
And all of the things you mention are the trust OP is talking about. You were a trusted person in that situation. The process increases and validates trust.
That’s basically what was being said and it’s not functionally different because the vast majority of the public does not work in elections or their verification. In essence if 99% of the population does not have access to data or cannot interpret said data, trust is needed.
I read certain phrases from what they wrote and it infers that people do not know who voted for who or what. That just isn't the mechanism. It's done by computers. It has to be tabulated for a multitude of reasons. It's not anonymous to the mechanism. It is anonymous to the public. Which is not what the original statement. It was that the trust is built from no one at all ever knowing or being to tell.
First, I'm writing about a person who's watching and doesn't know if they can trust the system. My point is that there's no alternative to trust in the system, the system is built on trust.
Second, if you're inside the system, if you're an election worker or a government authority, you can tell who voted. But, you can't tell who that voter cast their votes for -- at least in a functional democracy.
The authorities can, and should, have all kinds of checks and balances to make sure that all the votes are being handled safely and counted correctly. But, if the public doesn't trust the authorities, there's nothing that the authorities can realistically do to convince the public that everything is above board. You can't "prove" that the system isn't rigged.
Oh you can tell. But it's not going to be easy to report it without getting caught. Part of the process is auditing. We would take certain stacks that had incomplete marks and try and figure out who or what they meant. But it's just hi ho hum work because it's a madhouse. Remembering that Betty Smith voted for Prop 17 by the end of the day would be really difficult without being very obvious that was who you were looking for.
Then there are verifications on who voted at all that were registered to the right polls. All their answers are on their ballots. Security is what keeps it secret and a precise way of dealing with it. In a big room with many eyes. Kind of like a casino's money vault.
Oh man are you confused. For everyone else this person doesnt know how voting works.
Voting in the states is 100% anonymous across the board. The data trail stops after a person is signed in at the polls. There is zero information on a ballot to identify you.
You do know I worked in an election? For everyone else this person is grandstanding!
🤦 no you havent or your state has some weird laws. which state are you need lets go look at their ballot. this is easily disproved.
I am not giving you personal information. Especially since you seem like some unhinged troll. I worked in an election. It's easily proven. How else would they know that 15 Bob Smiths didn't vote in every adjacent county. And for every issue? How do you think they verify if they are alive? Just magic and pixie dust?
sigh, child... bless your heart. you have to check into a book, a book that you had to prove who you were and where you live to be entered into. all that records is that you showed up. there is no record of who you voted for, unless of course you're one of the idiots who walks into the polls in full on trump billboard mode. if you worked polls you would know this or if you had any basic level of critical thinking skills.
The only indication of your inclinations that are recorded is if you're registered for a particular party as well.
Now as for voting in multiple places:
- requires multiple residents in multiple locations to pull off.
- you need to sign into two books before getting a ballot.
presto: this dumbass voted in two locations. they don't need to know who you voted for to know you committed a crime.
at this point its very clear you've never worked a booth or are incredibly handicapped on reasoning ability.