Anybody else feel so annoyed when western leftists say "It WaSn'T rEaL sOcIaLiSm" despite the massive evidence to the contrary?
Anybody else feel so annoyed when western leftists say "It WaSn'T rEaL sOcIaLiSm" despite the massive evidence to the contrary?
It was really annoying back when I was a rightist but it's even more frustrating now that I am a Marxist-Leninist that so-called "leftists" denounce pretty much every single successful socialist experience in history.
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I'll bite. What successful socialist experiences are being denounced?
Primarily China. Some western leftists can't understand that having markets doesn't mean a country isn't socialist.
Western leftists often denounce all of them (Cuba, the DPRK, China, Vietnam, Laos, and the historical experiments), as well as the non-Marxist attempts at socialism like in Venezuela, despite never having achieved anything remotely close to socialism in their own countries
I see that Russia isn't on your list, is it a socialist state or something else?
Depends on what you mean by Russia. If you mean the Soviet Union, then yes, they were most definitely socialist, even though revisionists would later take over and steer it towards the path of complete capitalist restoration.
If you mean modern Russia, then no, they are not socialist, they are capitalist. They have more state-owned industries than normal capitalist societies and oppose the West, but that's like saying Iran is socialist because the exact same description I just mentioned fits them as well. Just because the Russian government sometimes says good things about the Soviet Union doesn't make them socialist or wannabe socialist either, they are just trying to win over the many Russians who are nostalgic for the Soviet era. The Russian government is very much anti-socialist.
Thank you for the explanation. I've seen a lot of support for Russia, so I thought you guys thought they were socialists. I'm still learning about all this, I'm quite new to being on the left.
The reason for that is many of us feel the primary roadblock to socialism is American Hegemony so states which actively resist America receive critical support. Other common examples are Al-Assad's Syria and Ghadaffi's Libya.
Due to the tendency of the circlejerk the critical part tends to be silent, also as no other state has the same global influence as America, their flaws frankly matter less.
Realpolitik/critical support. Russia balkanizes and now the US has several new vassal states on China's border. Russia will also continue being punished for having been the USSR until the end of time, which makes them act in anti-imperialistic ways, not by choice like the Soviets, but outta necessity. Putin did wanna be NAFO afterall, but again, critical support. The enemy of my enemy and so on and so on
It's repeated constantly but definitely do read theory and take notes. Otherwise you'll continue debates settled 100+ years ago and just in general be led around by the nose
so I thought you guys thought they were socialists. I’m still learning about all this, I’m quite new to being on the left.
I encourage you to read about the concept of critical support; you can have fundamental disagreements with somebody that you support in a particular aspect. Things do not have to binary 100% support/oppose.
Most of us understand a lot of the underlying reasons Russia is in the conflict that they are in. We also recognize that we have a mutual enemy in NATO. While at a glance that may look like we really support Russia right now, that is mostly because we don't have the same kneejerk reaction against them in the current political climate. It does not mean we support Russia blindly or that we think they are socialist nation. They aren't even a particular ally to socialism, but we can still support them when our interests align.
There are some people who think that because the USSR was socialist (true) that so is modern Russia, but that is generally a liberal point of view.
Do you mean modern Russian Federation? It's not socialist in the slightest
I'd argue that for several of the "experiences" on this list that success really depends on who you are and they aren't or weren't so great for everyone. And, certainly they all have socialist policies, but similar how it would be inaccurate to define the US as entirely capitalist, socialism isn't the only defining characteristic. China, for instance, is more strongly characterized by its fascism.
And the DPRK? By what measurement is this considered successful?
That said, I'm certainly not intimately familiar with all of them, and if socialism didn't have positive successes in the world I wouldn't support it.
And the DPRK? By what measurement is this considered successful?
Idk, I’m pretty sure something pretty major happened ~70 years ago? I can’t really remember though…
Just kidding I’m not a liberal who forgets history if the media isn’t shoveling its interpretation of it into my mouth, the DPRK was bombed into the fucking stone age, and didn’t have the United States to pump billions and billions of dollars to rebuild itself, just some help from the USSR and China who couldn’t afford to pump anywhere near the amount of capital into their economy like the US could into Japan and SK, so considering all that I think they’ve been quite successful for their material conditions
I haven't been since the pandemic, and I know it hit them pretty hard, but it was a much nicer place than a lot of liberals think it is. They are always opening new housing projects that are actually REALLY nice. Wide variety of food and services, as long as you don't care about having specific brand names on everything you consume. The best part was definitely that people actually had time to live.
I lived in SK (about one year) and the DPRK (aobut three months) thanks to my grad school research, and I can say that I would much prefer to live in the DPRK than SK again. SK is an absolute unchecked exploitative capitalist hellscape, I am not sure there is a country on earth with worse work-life balance. I live in Japan and SK makes us look like a workers paradise.
Wow that’s pretty cool! I’d love to visit the DPRK one day but it’s literally illegal for me as an American :/
Maybe it will be possible again, it wasn't too long ago Americans could still go. Would be happy to answer any questions you had then, though my trip wasn't the normal tourism one so probably a bit different.
Oh I'd love to hear about your experience! I imagine since you had such an extended stay, you didn't have any kind of chaperone with you?
On arrival I did, but it felt more like a guide than a minder. Once I was set up at the university I was more or less left to my own devices around campus. I took a few trips to other areas and had a guide again, but they never really stopped me from doing anything. Mostly helped with communication. I do speak Korean but not perfectly, and there are some dialect differences here or there I struggled with.
I definitely was not watched 24/7 like people would lead you to believe.
Makes sense. Jeez it's insane just how exaggerated and pervasive western propaganda is...like, I've done a good amount of research to try and undo my perceptions about the DPRK, but even still I have the thought that "surely there must be something that's accurate in the media that's just wildly exaggerated". But I guess US media does just make up whatever the fuck they want.
Did you visit more rural towns? What were they like? I was checking the sattelite images out on Google earth and it looks like they're really tiny and spread out. Also did you go to the Waterpark? Lol
I did vist a couple smaller towns. They seemed very similar to rural towns in my country (Japan) at first glance. People were friendly. All of the ones I went to had a community center that people seemed to use pretty often after work; they seemed to offer classes and further education type programs. When I talk about the DPRK having way better work-life balance than the south, that is one of the big things that jumped out to me. They were probably about what you would expect from rural farming communities for the most part.
If you are talking about Munsu, it opened after my last visit, so I did not have the chance to go. Looks fun though.
The North was also had better conditions than the South before the 90s when like idk probably nothing important happened in the 90s
Yes exactly
it would be inaccurate to define the US as entirely capitalist
How would you define it then?
China, for instance, is more strongly characterized by its fascism.
I would also like to know your definition of fascism
According to those people, China is fascist because of the made-up genocide, as well as the liberals' misconception of authority. That’s enough to call China fascist in their view. I hope this person answers you because I want to ask wtf they think is the motivation for this bizarre genocide. I always wanted to question a liberal about this but I never had the opportunity.
I knew right when they said that China was fascist that we had a liberal on our hands.
America is pretty much a shadow government run by oil corporations, weapons manufacturers and finance capital where Amazon warehouse workers are not able to form unions because the government lets Amazon wield their trillion dollar union busting might without with no repercussions but please tell us how it is not entirely capitalist.
Please give some examples of Chinese fascism (with some kind of evidence, not just baseless allegations by bourgeois media), and your definition of fascism
Like Cuba, the DPRK is extremely successful considering the genocidal sanctions imposed upon it by the imperial core. The level of convenience certainly varies between cities like Pyongyang and rural areas, but they've been severely restricted by the aforementioned sanctions as well as the destruction caused by the US during the invasion of Korea (destroying most large buildings and killing 20% of the population)
Please give some examples of Chinese fascism
Okay.
Am I doing this right?
Did you really just call China fascist? 🫢
The Soviet Union, China, Korea, GDR, Yugoslavia, basically every single Marxist-Leninist nation. I'm not really referring to Maoists and Hoxhaists (though they can be annoying as well but are more tolerable to me), I'm referring to the majority of the "not real socialism" gang which most rightists like to mock, which are democratic socialists, pseudo-Marxists, and anarchists.