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I think the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" idea is overstated, most people I interact with have a somewhat negative outlook on the economy and their future wealth.
I think the real issue is that no viable alternative is presented to most people.
The alternatives presented are Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style "socialism" in which the narrative only focuses on poverty.
The PRC is absolutely a viable alternative, it's a Socialist Market Economy that has been steadily transfering Private Property into Public Property as markets coalesce into monopolist syndicates, which are then capable of central planning.
They have the most wild form of capitalism there is. And they married it with a lot of corruption and zero political freedom. This is not an alternative. Please.
They have a Socialist Market Economy, and married it to a Dictatorship of the Proletariat following whole-process people's democracy. One of the focuses of Xi's presidency has been anti-corruption, along with steady socialization of the private sector. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism. You have an ultra-idealist vision of Socialism that is anti-Marxist. Private property is socialized by degree, not decree!
Yes I have seen you in other comments. And we both know what is the actual state and level of freedom, poverty, and capitalism and corruption in China. Maybe organize a protest in China.
I know you like their system, but for some reason you fail to see issues with their system.
I fail to see the issues you imagine replicated in reality. Leave your mind palace.
Agreed. You can't argue with how effective it's been for the country as a whole, but I don't think i'd rather live there as an individual.
I would not live there. I value freedom and privacy. (In a healthy European way)
What "healthy European" freedom looks like:
- West votes against democracy, human rights, cultural diversity at UN; promotes mercenaries, sanctions
- West opposes rest of world in UN votes for fairer economic system, equality, sustainable development
- China condemns ‘racist’ Western hypocrisy over Ukraine: You ignore victims in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Palestine
- Pro-Palestine activists are under attack in Europe
- Censorship in Europe: Major Palestinian news channels banned on Telegram
- Two months after elections, Macron refuses to nominate progressive prime minister
- Facebook and Instagram Restrict the Use of the Red Triangle Emoji Over Hamas Association
- The 10 European countries that restrict religious attire for Muslim women
- EU court allows conditional headscarves bans at work
- Refugees who died off Italy 10 years ago remembered as new crisis flares
- Poland: Digital investigation proves Poland violated refugees’ rights
- Poland: Abortion Witch Hunt Targets Women, Doctors
What "healthy European" privacy looks like:
- The EU Funds Surveillance Around the World: Here's What Must be Done About it
- AI mass surveillance at Paris Olympics – a legal scholar on the security boon and privacy nightmare
- Investigation of the use of Pegasus and equivalent surveillance spyware
- 20 biggest GDPR fines so far [2024] (the fines in question are negligible, and only serve to line the pockets of the rich)
- Female health apps aren’t doing enough to protect sensitive data, study says
"I have an uncle who smoked whole life and is 98 years old" I am sure you know what you have been doing when you presented your "evidence". Not cool.
I've re-read this several times and I still don't have the slightest clue to what you're referring to, lib. It's clear-as-day that you're just another "They hate us for our freedom" folks and don't actually care about freedom or privacy for all.
(I am contemplating whether your are just trolling me and I should stop participating in this debate. But lets assume you really did not understood my point.)
- You typed in google something like "EU failing privacy/democracy/freedom" and posted top results. And all those cases are real, but are cherry picked. Therefore I responded with a classical argument about why smoking is "not bad for your health". https://www.logicalfallacies.org/anecdotal.html
- Your results did not include any actual indexes or aggregation of the data.
Please check this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices especially "list of scores by country" where you also have some historic entries.
To help you with some conclusions:
- EU countries are by far most free and private. Yes of course with their own issues but still way better than any other country.
- China is awful regarding this topic.
So why I had a problem with your response: I strongly believe you already knew the above two facts. You just decided to ignore them and presented me with some problems eu has so you can win the argument. So... I do not like you tried to "win argument" with a logical fallacy which is counterproductive for the debate. And when we just throw random arguments so opposing point of view comes out as bad, everyone comes out a little more radical in their view and noone changes their opinion. And I spent some time writing those comments (not with research but by forming thoughts and sentences in my second language). By turning the debate to this "Facebook like arguing" you destroyed my effort to participate in this community.
Also in response to your latest accusation: I specifically told you I have a healthy relationship with freedom, and "they hate us for our freedom" does not belong in this category.
I think the real issue is that no viable alternative is presented to most people.
As Marx said, "the ideas of ruling class are the ruling ideas"
The alternatives presented are Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style “socialism” in which the narrative only focuses on poverty.
Funnily enough you are proof of your previous statement above. The ruling class is presenting any, both better or worse alternatives to you in such form that you immediately dismiss them.
What gave you the idea that I'm dismissing them? I think you're confused.
Good quote tho
What gave you the idea that I’m dismissing them?
You, you said "Russian-style authoritarian oligarchy, Islamofascism, or a Venezuela-style “socialism” in which the narrative only focuses on poverty."
This is blatantly false. And you don't even know what the alternatives are or aren't. Russia isn't an systemic alternative, it's the very same capitalist as in west, just 100 years late and too late to develop imperialism, it's only a political alternative which forced them, after over 2 decades of trying to join the capitalist core, to finally oppose it. Islamofascism is such a fucking blatant Bush-era propaganda that i won't even comment on that nonsense. Venezuela don't even have socialism, again it's not an alternative, it's a capitalist economy which was forced into politically opposing capitalist core because of over century of brutal exploitation by that core.
All three examples your presented are the same narration (even more extreme in case of islam) than the billionaire owned western media oligopoly and their political arms like US DoS spreads. You don't try to know more (some of examples are in this very thread, and the actual alternatives like China too), you dismiss them in the exact manner the capitalist core ruling class wants you.
My friend, you are still confused.
I was giving the framing that comes from the billionaire owned western media oligopoly position.
that isnt my position
So you do not believe those? Could you elaborate what you think is the alternative for billionaires and especially capitalism?