[Spoilers up to Book 2 and S2E6] Thoughts on finishing WoT Book 2 #wheeloftime
[Spoilers up to Book 2 and S2E6] Thoughts on finishing WoT Book 2 #wheeloftime
A follow up from my previous post on book 1
I do have to apologise ... this rant turns out to be pretty negative
So finished book 2 last night, just writing some off the cuff thoughts.
Thoughts on the show
First, I think I'm settled now in being a show fan first, which I'm sure is odd or strange for many book fans. But, for the first two books, I prefer the show and think it's doing a good job at adapting the books. Reading the books after seeing the show has made me miss things the show did and understand the challenge the show has had not just with compressing things into a tight TV schedule but managing the difficulties of adapting these books which include, IMO, pretty glaring flaws or at least awkward elements. Unfortunately, I've now got a pretty clear prejudice against book fans that heavily criticised or hated the show ... with all of the understanding/sympathy in the world, I think they just weren't ready to watch an adaptation and weren't being reasonable about how good or bad the first two books are.
Rest of season 2
Otherwise, for the rest of season 2, I'm in a curious position. I know how the second book ends, and so can see some of where the show is headed, but it's also going in some other directions almost certainly influenced by later books. I'm guessing it's bringing in a lot of book 3, and from what I can tell about where book 3 sits in the series (IE, it was supposed to be shorter and kind of wraps up this opening act of the series) I'm guessing it's going to try to wrap adapting all of book 2 and 3 ... so in a way I don't really know what's going to happen, which is cool, except I'm betting Egwene gets rescued and maybe something about Fain gets revealed? Will we get a battle in the sky though, will Lanfear kinda help Rand??
Thoughts on the book itself
So, for me, I lump book 2 along with book 1. Overall, it's a somewhat clumsy and seemingly rushed intro into the world and the series, probably written under a cloud of doubt and with an urge to publish quickly. I rank book 2 lower than book 1, largely because I don't think it achieves much and feels a lot like set up and info dump without a clear purpose or coherent story in its own right. For me, the sudden appearance of Moraine at the end, after Lanfear's sudden appearance and revelation, both with some info dump, along with Rand just jumping around the map without any real clear reason as to why it was happening, was all rather telling.
Reading it, I got the impression that the book was the clumsy/bad adaptation of the show (honestly serious). Like, Rand magically falling into the portal world and having a slightly B-tier fantasy sequence with Selene, who was obviously dodgy and likely lanfear, seemed like a cheap vehicle to get Rand to Cairhien. The portals then seemed like a cheap mechanism to get Rand to Falme while also being able to have the revelation of Machin Shin kinda following him. The whole multiple worlds and multiverse of timelines seems like it was supposed to be telling us something, at least thematically, maybe leading up to Rand's certainty that he's never sided with the dark one in a past life. But it never hit for me ... all I can hope for is that it comes up again in the series. The deal with Fain being mysteriously evil and yet not concluding it in anyway through plot in the book to then be clarified by a Moraine info dump, again felt like Jordan just needed this to be clear for later stories and didn't quite know how to do it.
Despite the kinda cringey super saiyan deus ex machina ending of book 1 ... we get ... another super saiyan ending in book 2? Fighting in the sky with magic swords or something again? Despite having blown the horn, the outcome of the battle still somehow depended on Rand winning the match? Also, somehow, out of no where, Rand is a master swordsman against Turak (and Ba'alzamon)? In the first book, I guess we can infer that the ending was intended by Ba'alzamon ... but I don't know what I'm supposed to glean from his fight in book 2 ... is Rand just powerful now without much explanation cuz "Dragon" ... cuz that's how it feels.
Personally, these are not satisfying endings, and the ending of season 1 compares rather favourably to both of the first two book endings. For a series that is celebrated for its magic system, and by implication not having a bad soft magic system, the first two books literally end with Rand being able to do things mostly involving flying in the sky like Goku that make no sense and have no set up other than "it's his fate to fight in the final battle". I say that as someone who's rather fond of soft magic systems ... but this literal deus ex machina stuff is the cardinal sin of soft magic and is not working for me it all. Like when the horn was blown, and hereos came out of nowhere swearing allegiance to Rand, even though that's what the horn is supposed to do ... and then Ba'alzamon appears out of nowhere and Rand starts fighting ... I was honestly thinking ... "really?!"
Sense of the series over all
I'm hoping my general contextual critique is accurate, and that these first 3 books are really an introduction that aren't representative of the series because they weren't written with the knowledge that the series was going to happen.
I always set out to read at least up to book 4 (and hopefully book 6), as many say that's when the series actually starts (I'm guessing it's the beginning of the second act of the series) ... and I will still do so ... as the first two books have definitely set up a very interesting world that I'm a fan of already.
Looking ahead though, I'm starting to wonder about the series as a whole. The slog is well known (however controversial), and I'm already starting to write off books 1-3. So, it's a 14 book series, where 1-3 are clumsy/flawed set up (my critique ATM) and 7-10 are "slog", leaving 4-6 and 11-14 ... so it's a more or less conventional double trilogy book series?? I know I'm being harsh here (and uninformed!!), and maybe I'm just bitter from book 2, but I'm starting to wonder how much the whole "the series doesn't start until book 4, oh and there's a slog 3 books later" is way too casually brushed off ... like I think I would have preferred a greater warning about what books 1 and 2 are and feel somewhat mislead. Maybe I just don't like Jordan's style ... I'm definitely curious to find out, but I feel like the first two books have structural issues that deserve (from the little I've seen) more commentary.
Back to the show
Thing is, as I said, I'm a show fan first, and it's actually the show that has set up the world for me with the books kind of being an awkward supplemental of additional detail.
For instance, Egwene in Falme is awesome in the show, and it felt like Jordan didn't quite appreciate the depth of the character moment he had created, with her being tortured etc kinda being brushed over as mostly info dump ... except of course when Egwene is free and loses her shit, which was a very nice way of clearly showing the effect of her experience, but also felt somewhat contrived because we had to infer how bad it must have been for her. In the show, if they free her, I am going to feel her liberated rage when she realises what vengeance she can do.
Generally, the character development of the girls is wonderful in the show and Jordan's treatment shows its sexism age. THe amount of talk of who gets to marry Rand, as well as hair combing ... was pretty cringe. Also, the seanchan do not come off as brutal in this book as I think book fans remember, it's often very after the fact when I feel like at least one clear depiction would have been rather impactful.
Fleshing out Liandrin and Moraine and Lanfear in season 2 has been awesome as well ... really smart choices it seems. Even leaving out Perrin's wolfbrother stuff with Elyas until season 2 seems smart in hindsight as he is pretty much not a focus of book 2.
General story thoughts and questions
Ok, so what was ba'alzamon's plan? Without getting into more critique of the books, because I could be really off base here ... but either the book is being intentionally mysterious, or I totally missed something, but I did not feel like ba'alzamon was a threat in this? Is the idea that many things surprised him ... Fain's extra double shadow nature ... Lanfear's interference ... Mat blowing the horn? When Ingtar revealed he was the darkfriend I had already forgotten about the prologue and that he was the obvious candidate ... largely I think because it really wasn't clear that any plan was pushing things around too much.
Putting the show together with the books ... I'm guessing it's a relatively big reveal later on in the books that the dark one is actually just Ishamael (which has been fairly clearly hinted at in the books). The show seems to have no cared for that mystery too much (which I've liked) ... I'm curious to see where it goes and for what purpose in the books.
I'm pretty sure it's me ... but I am not feeling the whitecloaks at all as an element of the world. Their involvement in book 2 was confusing to me ... did I miss something? But also, I guess I just don't like Fanatical Christian tropey stuff.
From book 1, I was always curious if Shadar Logoth and the Ways would become things ... and I'm pleased to see that they are. Fain being a Shadar creature, that is so against the dark that it is its own kind of dark is super cool to me. And Machin Shin and Siadin are some sort of thing ... right?! That the seanchan are an alternative forked culture was also super cool ... I just wish it was more fleshed out in some way ... and I'm guessing they come back and are a permanent part of the world.
Generally, as any WoT fan probably things, the diversity of cultures and angles especially on what "the dark" even is wonderful! Going on from that, I feel like the book is trying to hint at me that the relationship between the Dragon and the Dark is not so clear cut. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a revelation that Ishamael and the Dragon have had their roles reversed in previous ages. This is probably what's keeping me in the series the most ... what is Jordan going to do with his "evil" and "hero" dynamic here.
I think from this and previous posts of yours, part of your issue is not jiving well with Jordan's writing style. That you consider Egwene's experiences an "info dump" might be suggestive. Jordan fought in the Vietnam War as a machinegunner. There is no doubt he had the weight of having killed people and watched people suffer on his soul when he wrote the Wheel of Time. To many of us, Egwene's suffering in the books was heart-wrenching. While IMO the show did it Justice, everyone (including Rafe vaguely) commented on the importance of getting that scene right to achieve the full horrific intention behind it. For most of us, we don't get out of that scene just hating the Seanchan. They literally nauseate us.
A lot of folks consider tGH to be one of the stronger books in the series, far stronger than tWoT. Yes, there was a lot of world-building, and a lot of prepwork. It's where the "great foreshadowing" started, that Jordan is so famous for, foreshadowing most people miss the first readthrough.
I do agree that Jordan's villains are shown more two-dimensional in the books (at least early ones) despite the potential depth they could have. He liked there being a clear bad guy that you don't really sympathize for because they have it coming. Maybe from his military experiences? I dunno.
Ok, so what was ba’alzamon’s plan? Without getting into more critique of the books, because I could be really off base here … but either the book is being intentionally mysterious, or I totally missed something
Jordan is definitely like an onion. Ba'alzamon's plan is clear on a reread. And the show is straight-out saying it. He wants to destroy everything and end existence, and he can only do it if something goes different. There have been an infinite pasts where they fought, and in every one of them, the Dark One failed to completely win in some way or another... but so too did the Dragon. You saw alternate realities that, on the surface, seem to show the Dark One having won, but (not really a spoiler) if you pay careful attention, he hadn't won in those alternate realities either... because his goal is to destroy everything, and clearly there are still things in those realities.
Remember, Ba'alzamon is utterly and completely insane. That's an undercurrent of everything he does, and that was left out of the show (for good reasons, IMO).
Putting the show together with the books … I’m guessing it’s a relatively big reveal later on in the books that the dark one is actually just Ishamael
Yeah. Ba'alzamon is also the guy you've been seeing in the show ;). It's not REALLY a huge reveal, since Jordan intended most readers to have guessed it by the time it happens. It also happens fairly soon in your reading. Not a huge spoiler, since it's so obvious as a watcher. That's actually what I was dodging around in earlier discussions with you because I didn't know if you realized they were one and the same.
but I am not feeling the whitecloaks at all as an element of the world. Their involvement in book 2 was confusing to me … did I miss something? But also, I guess I just don’t like Fanatical Christian tropey stuff.
The Whitecloaks operate out of Amadicia ( see proximity on map ). They very recently lost a play for power that would have put them in the same league as Andor in terms of overall land and might. They're still butt-hurt about that. Because Amadicia shares borders with Tarabon, they have a vested interest in controlling/brokering in the war between Tarabon and Arad Domon. Tomon Head and Falme were in the disputed territories, so ANOTHER force, a mysterious force that wields the yucky evil naughty One Power showing up is a Big Deal (TM) to them. They expected to kill two birds with one stone by dealing with them. If they brought in both nations under their control, that puts them back in Major Player status, if not as well as had previous conquests gone off correctly.
But from the above, they're heavily weakened from that war they recently lost. So their leader Pedron Niall, one of the Great Generals, has been very careful regarding the outlay of troops. Geofram Bornhald is arguably his most trusted commander, and is sent there mostly to be peacekeeping and "solve problems to win brownie points". You know the monkey wrench Jaichim Carridin introduced by this point, obviously. Taking a step back, you will be learning a LOT more about the Whitecloaks and their intentions in upcoming books. Jordan often wrote what happened, and then filled in all the blanks through dialog that happens books later.
Fanatical Christian trope? Yes. But with the interesting angle that Jordan himself was a faithful Christian. If you watch the Whitecloaks carefully, they do bumble through doing some correct things. There's a huge "memory test" scene in Lord of Chaos that proves that Whitecloaks actually do sometimes succeed at rooting out and killing darkfriends. It's just the fanatical that's wrong.
From book 1, I was always curious if Shadar Logoth and the Ways would become things …
I'm pretty positive that's still going to happen, ditto with some Ways-related stuff. But I agree that I was surprised it didn't happen in S2. It was an interesting choice to make Ishy take Fain's role in S2. It works, though.
Generally, as any WoT fan probably things, the diversity of cultures and angles especially on what “the dark” even is wonderful! Going on from that, I feel like the book is trying to hint at me that the relationship between the Dragon and the Dark is not so clear cut
Interesting. I like that line of thought. Obviously, read and find out.
Thanks, as always, for the awesome replies!!
I think from this and previous posts of yours, part of your issue is not jiving well with Jordan’s writing style. That you consider Egwene’s experiences an “info dump” might be suggestive.
I've certainly come to wonder how much of a writing style problem there is. I'm curious to see how that tracks however. Book 3, for instance, is so far much more enjoyable for me than books 1&2. So far, it's a bit heavy on the Tar Valon court intrigue, which might bore some people, but it is working for me much more, largely because, I think, the stakes and the problems are just more clearly outlined and felt, even if there are serious mysteries afoot (like what the hell Selene and the black ajar are up to and how far the girls' hunt is going to take them).
In that vein, I think the Egwene in Falme sequence is interesting. My original comments were from someone who'd seen the TV version first, and I was almost certainly crude in saying "info dump". Off the top of my head, however, I think do stand by my critique. The key difference was not just Jordan's style but the staging of events and revelations. Jordan gives us many of the key revelations as the Seanchan company are going from the way gate back to Falme. It's almost a walk-and-talk. For me, it distracted from what Egwene was going through, especially the relative focus on how other Suldam thought of Egwene's suldam. The show, on the other hand, immediately and almost entirely situates Egwene in a kennel/prison cell. That sets the feel and tone of the situation in a completely different, and IMO, better and more focused way. The show, intelligently, depicts what Egwene wants to do, through her imagination, and what she can't do, through her punishment, very well. The visuals also made it clear just how much she was going through. All of that is what I meant by "info dump". However much the events hit hard in the book, comparatively, it felt like they were being portrayed in a somewhat more matter of fact fashion. It would be interesting, even for me, to revisit the sequence in the book and think about it from a stylistic stand point ... there's a chance I'm way off here.
Beyond that, one of my main problems with the first two books are the endings. I'm not sure the ending of book 2 is easily differentiated from that of book 1, and criticising book 1's ending seems somewhat normal amongst the fandom. I'm guessing Book 2 links with the rest of the series more, and that's part of the relative love. But apart from that, I see no reason to have enjoyed the big magical fight in the sky any more than book 1. At least with book 1 it was clear that they had ventured to a very special and old and mysterious space and so it made sense that a lot of new and intense stuff would happen there. Ba'alzamon appearing, out of nowhere, to fight in the sky with Rand doing "something" to win, compared to connecting to the eye of the world in some way ... I'm not sure I can enjoy that.
As for general stylistic thoughts, I would say my vague feeling is Jordan wants the characters to be moving and talking more than I like, and I think I'd prefer more emphasis on moments and situations and feelings and thoughts. When there are feelings and thoughts, so far, they seem to come out of the rush of events. Obviously, the girls in Tar Valon in book 3, and even Mat's night of gambling in Tar Valon before leaving (where I'm up to), are much more enjoyable for me. Maybe I'll be a "slog" fan!
Yeah. Ba’alzamon is also the guy you’ve been seeing in the show ;). It’s not REALLY a huge reveal, since Jordan intended most readers to have guessed it by the time it happens. It also happens fairly soon in your reading. Not a huge spoiler, since it’s so obvious as a watcher. That’s actually what I was dodging around in earlier discussions with you because I didn’t know if you realized they were one and the same.
Yea interesting. It seemed the sort of thing that the show could have been adapting it the way they did by joining together a few things in a few different ways. When you asked me about this you mentioned something about the "dark one's fate" which is still the confusing part ... it's not clear if the dark one and ishamael are different and we've not seen the dark one and their direct actions at all, or, has some sort of merging occurred. So far, I'd guess the book wants us to think there's some close alignment as Ishamael/Ba'alzamon has mentioned the countless repetitions of the wheel of time and his battles with the dragon (even in the prologue of EotW I think), despite it seeming like Ishamael the person was born in the previous age. I'll have to read and find out I guess! Though it seems the S2 finale might get there before my books do.
Jordan often wrote what happened, and then filled in all the blanks through dialog that happens books later.
Yea, stylistically, I think this is problematic for me. I don't mind mysteries at all, but this tendency irks me I think.
But I agree that I was surprised it didn’t happen in S2. It was an interesting choice to make Ishy take Fain’s role in S2. It works, though.
Definitely the one thing that I've missed about the show so far. Though it's been hinted at. Fain got the dagger at the end of season 1, and is currently in Falme, and presumably is the one that "crucified" the fade, and the preview of the S2 finale has shown the dagger making an appearance. So it'll be interesting. For me, there wasn't even enough Fain/Shadar in book 2 ... I was rather bothered that the character's role ended with an info dump from Moraine ... though we did get to see clearly from Mat's fighting what the dagger actually is capable of.
the book is trying to hint at me that the relationship between the Dragon and the Dark is not so clear cut
Interesting. I like that line of thought. Obviously, read and find out.
One of the biggest examples I can think of from memory, though perhaps very minor, is a dream in book 1 where I think there's a line where Rand sees his reflection and thinks he sees Ba'alzamon's face. I could have that wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's a mirror-reflection scene in there.
Some interesting points here! Sorry on the delayed reply.
The "walk and talk"...yeah, happens a lot in the beginning. Most of my fond memories are about stories told by characters... kinda a "play within a play" mechanism. For a show-first person, I can see how your headcanon on that could be as more exposition. "Weep for Manetheran" has a special place in a lot of hearts.
As for "what people think of Egwene's Suldam"... Renna's a bit of a recurring character, not a throwaway. And the way Suldam think is actually a little bit important as you get to know the Seanchan (who are themselves not throwaways, as I'm sure you figured out). Here's the stylistic point: Jordan paints us several cultures, many extremely unpleasant, that are not aligned with the Dark. One of my critiques of the show is how they changed Shadar Logoth because the story of Aridhol is pretty important - "The victory of the light is all", a culture that lost all semblance of honor in their fight against evil and ultimately succumbed to something just as dark, but just as "not of the Shadow".
Obviously, the girls in Tar Valon in book 3, and even Mat’s night of gambling in Tar Valon before leaving (where I’m up to), are much more enjoyable for me. Maybe I’ll be a “slog” fan!
Could be! Stick around and you'll hear me rant about the Slog like that old guy who "walked barefoot to school in the winter". The slog isn't a set of books; it's a period of 10 years where very little happened and all these WoT superfans had to wait patiently. Nothing is wrong with a politicking book with no big moves, unless you'd waited 5+ years for big moves and you immediately know you have to wait 2 more when you finish that book (which, if you're like me, you finished around 4am on the day following release day).
it’s not clear if the dark one and ishamael are different and we’ve not seen the dark one and their direct actions at all
I never thought how being show-first would influence this take. Remember how the book doesn't feed you "Rand is the Dragon" until you should have already figured it out yourself? Ditto with the Ishy thing. You get a straight answer in book 3, but there's enough cards on the table for you to know already. I think the show is making it a bit hard for you to put 2 and 2 together because they do things differently.
That's actually why I stepped around it oddly. The way I saw the show, S1 basically spoiled the whole Ishy/DarkOne thing entirely. But it seems it instead muddies the water up for some show-first folks. When you're done with book 3, if you still don't get things I said (maybe I'm just confusing :) ), hit me up and we can chat about it and you'll see.
Though it’s been hinted at. Fain got the dagger at the end of season 1, and is currently in Falme, and presumably is the one that “crucified” the fade, and the preview of the S2 finale has shown the dagger making an appearance.
No future spoilers here. Yes, Fain absolutely crucified the Fade. It won't get mentioned again the books, and was implicit when he started being in control of the Trollocs and Darkfriends. How that plays out in the show, I have absolutely no idea. As you know, Fain wasn't close under the eyes of Darkfriends by the end of book 2. He and Ishy being in the same room is problematic to him, which means either they're cutting parts of his story arc (I have mixed feelings about that, considering how awesome Johann Myers is doing) or they're going to have to redirect later like they did for Mat. Honestly, as you know, he might just be behind because Mat is behind.
You'll see more Fain and Shadar Logoth in the books. Both are fairly important to the plot in ways you couldn't possibly guess.
One of the biggest examples I can think of from memory, though perhaps very minor, is a dream in book 1 where I think there’s a line where Rand sees his reflection and thinks he sees Ba’alzamon’s face. I could have that wrong, but I’m pretty sure there’s a mirror-reflection scene in there
No, you're right, the whole "HIS FACE" things happened how you remember. I don't want to say anything about some of those things because your theories obviously touch through every book into the finale, but I love hearing your theories. Obviously you're not 100% hitting every point (if you were, it would be a boring series), but you're also coming really close to some I wouldn't have expected, or didn't even really formulate until a reread.
