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Me and the boys looking for a single communist country that wasn't a totalitarian hellhole:
Me, looking for a single communist country.
I hate being that person but communism has essentially been exclusively used as a campaign promise by corrupt/evil groups attempting to seize power from the population.
Broadly speaking, people don't understand communism and assume it just means "you own nothing and share everything. And starve."
Just like people argue that crony capitalism isn't capitalism, totalitarian communism isn't communism. Corruption is the real problem.
The problem isn't really "corruption", but systens which allow and even encourage corrupt actions.
That's why these countries turned into totalitarian hell holes, the system was set up for a small group of people to rule over everyone else.
Which is diametrically opposed to what communism is supposed to be. They just stole the name.
Communism is self-contradictory, which makes it easy to think anything is diametrically opposed to it. I'll explain:
Starting with socialism, it's a system in which the means of production are held in common. To handle the means of production in common, systems have to be set in place to decide who controls what, and who answers to who, and what rules and regulations they need to follow. This system is the state. You might not have called it a state, and it may not have even been a state, but the process I just described is a form of state governance. Socialism is a call for state control of the means of production.
Communism is a stateless, moneyless, and classless society, with the means of production held in common. Meaning, it's a stateless state with the means of production handled by the state.
This is why it seems diametrically opposed to you: Communism claims to call for both anarchy and socialism, but THOSE two things are diametrically opposed. Stalin wasn't a communist because he was totalitarian, and anarchist England wasn't communist because it was the opposite of totalitarian. Despite naming two extremes, I don't see anywhere in between that communism would fit. Nothing is communist, because nothing can be communist by virtue of what it is
Yeah, communism is a nice ideal, but it's diametrically opposed to human nature. It can only work in small communities where everyone knows everyone else.
Human nature is an essentialist myth.
There is no single behaviour or set of behaviour that applies to all humans everywhere at once.
There is only the way we are specialised and how the systems we live in shape us think and act.
Strongly disagree. There are common trends and themes all throughout human history. This does not mean that every individual human behaves a certain way, it means that large enough groups of humans do.
There is no single behaviour or set of behaviour that applies to all humans everywhere at once.
We smile when we're happy, we frown when we're sad. We come out the womb crying before anyone teaches us what that is. We naturally learn how to drink milk, with little prodding to do so. Crawling happens naturally, walking happens naturally. Talking too, although it is learned through observation so I can see your point there, but also, it's natural to learn through observation
We all show pain when we stub our toes. We all look for water when we're thirsty. There's also behaviors that are natural that don't show up in everyone. I don't see why they have to be that consistent across the board, right? Some people will naturally show more anger, while others - for no discernible reason - just don't.
And I'm not denying learned behaviors don't happen either. We can clearly see how both can happen if we just observe human interactions and their cause and effect honestly.
The idea that human nature is a myth was perpetuated by Marx out of a desire to reform human behavior through the state. He used the assumption that humans aren't natural agents to justify exerting full control over how people behave. This isn't my opinion by the way, I'm telling you what Marx said. He also did little work to justify the assumption, with no scientific or philosophical basis beyond his assertion that it's true
This system is a state.
That's where your argument breaks down. A socialist system does not requite state ownership to exist. It can simply mean the workers of a company are the shareholders of a company.
Literally that's all that has change to get us from a capitalist system to a socialist system. Instead of a capitalist investor class controlling the companies, making the decisions and reaping the profit, its the actual workers who make decisions and reap profit.
One of the ways capitalists try to scare people away from socialism is by making seem like it would change every aspect of society and make everything different (which works because people are scared of change) but it would actually be a pretty small change.
It can simply mean the workers of a company are the shareholders of a company.
But this doesn't just happen right? Consider the game of soccer, there are rules in place that say we have nets, and the nets sit opposite side of the fields, and we have a ball, and we kick the ball, and we don't use our hands, etc... those are the rules of soccer. Get rid of the rules, we get rid of soccer. The same is true for any system that requires cooperation. Rules are required or it doesn't exist. So yes, people have to follow rules for socialism to exist, and rules have to be enforced or they aren't rules. People have to enforce the rules, or the rules don't exist. You may not call it a state, but the more we go through the process of describing how to achieve socialism, the more we're simply describing statehood with socialist rules.
One of the ways capitalists try to scare people away from socialism is by making seem like it would change every aspect of society and make everything different (which works because people are scared of change) but it would actually be a pretty small change.
Well, this certainly isn't what I'm doing. I think we're already more socialist than capitalist where I live, and it's already damn near impossible for an individual to start a small business. Private businesses are disappearing and being replaced by cut-and-paste corporate stores given tax breaks by our shady government for political support
That whole first paragraph makes 0 sense to me?
Yes it does happen. Wtf does "soccer" have to do with anything. The only "rule" in socialism is that the workers own the means of production, and as I said before that doesn't not requite a state. You could make the same argument that a capitalist company is actually a kingdom and it would be just as valid as what you're saying.
And then the second paragraph, I really don't think you live anywhere that is actually that socialist and the grievances you're describing are regulation, not anything to do with socialism.
The only “rule” in socialism is that the workers own the means of production, and as I said before that doesn’t not requite a state
This is an incredibly general idea and makes no suggestion as to how this is achieved. You've made no effort to show me how to achieve this without rule of law, you just keep saying it'll work. Come on, think it through. Engage your brain. I'm sure the answer is there, I'm sure you know tons that I don't about how to structure socialism without rule of law, but you're just not saying any of it. Help me out here, give me some of your sacred knowledge please.
And then the second paragraph, I really don’t think you live anywhere that is actually that socialist and the grievances you’re describing are regulation
This is a great way to develop tunnel vision. Your only reason to suggest that what I said isn't true is that it contradicts your perception of the world. I don't care how smart you are, this mentality will completely break your ability to evaluate what's going on in the world.
I've already fucking told you how this is achieved. That was the whole point of my first comment. Its as simple as having the workers be the shareholders instead of a capitalist class. Why do you think this is unachievable without laws? And have you never heard of a co-op? As that is a very similar concept too.
So you're not going to mention where this mythical socialist land is? I'm guessing because you know its not actually more socialist than capitalist, and if you mention where it is, then that fact will become obvious.
At this point I'm starting to be convinced you're just a troll.
Communism is a stateless, moneyless, and classless society, with the means of production held in common. Meaning, it's a stateless state with the means of production handled by the state.
You know, states are not the only way of organising people or production or anything.
We didn't have states until very recently.
We've had states longer than we've had history. The father of history, Herodotus, gave us the history of the states of Greece and Persia. "State" doesn't mean "a US state"
A modern state is not at all the same form of government as in the fucking ancient Greece, are you aware of that.
Yes, I am aware. I never said they're the same, I said it was a state, which contradicts your assertion that states are a recent thing. If you want to keep talking about this I would suggest you stop lashing out first. I don't deserve the vitriol, and you deserve the opportunity to string your thoughts together without them being clouded by an unnecessary rage
I'm sorry, I reserve my right to be vitriolic when someone spouts some actual dumbass shit and pretends like it's profound.
"We use the word state for a few completely different systems of government, therefore everything is a state. Checkmate commulists."
Like, do you even read the shit you say?
The "Stateless" part of the statement means that isn't a modern nation state. It refers to a government system without centralised control, systems of delegstions instead of parliaments, etc.
Corruption is the real problem and all systems must develop a tolerance of it to some degree.
It seems to me, when looking at the history of communism, that it has a particularly low tolerance for corruption and that things go to shit quick.
It's not that true communism hasn't existed, it's that it simply cannot exist.
It's like a shitty cake recipe that looks good on TikTok, you can tell me how great the cake looks all day, but I saw you add a cup of salt to the batter
Here I go fixing communism again...
First up, just because it hasn't worked, there's no reason it can't work - or is there? I'm all ears. You missed that bit.
Beyond that, the most common issue is the fact that communism is typically achieved abruptly, with little to no pre-work. If you don't address the centralisation of wealth (and by extension, political influence), of course power is going to collapse back into authoritarian hellishness.
Transition via social democracy, taxing away the inequality, getting the populace on board with world-class social services, providing more services over time, as you transition from worker representation on boards and equity stakes to full worker ownership and workplace democracy over time.
Taking the benefits of the people fuelling the economy - workers, and handing it to wealthy shareholders that contribute nothing as they consolidate into monopolies, creating market failure in an economy fundamentally built on markets makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. There's a better way - it just takes a bit of work.