So, on pronouns.
So, on pronouns.
I have a few questions on how to best behave to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible without sounding bad. I hope you guys don't hate me.
I'm just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him? Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
And about respecting other people's pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don't before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
I've never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
I'd love some help with all of this.
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Honestly, I think that if I would say "my pronouns are he/him", people would think that's a weird thing to say and would think something like "oh, it's one of those woke people".
Where I live, the people that tell you about their pronouns are a minority, and they are usually people that need to tell you their pronouns to avoid confusion, or people that are particularly active in the "woke" community.
For 99% of the people you meet, it's fair to assume pronouns because it's obvious. And if your assumption was wrong, they can just tell you. No need to get butthurt over it.
Saying "my pronouns are..." without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion. Like, what are people going to say 5 years from now? "My name is ...., my pronouns are ..., my ethnicity is ..., I live in ... and my favorite color is ...."?
What a dumb way to start a conversation. You know, the whole point of a conversation is that you ask and answer questions, or share things you like to share. We don't need to share everything in the introduction sentence, including pronouns. It's just pointless most of the time.
To be clear: if anyone wants to tell me their pronouns right away, all good, I won't dislike you for it. Just don't expect the same from me, just assume my pronouns and I'll be happy to correct you on the off chance that you're wrong.
No one's expecting that of you dude. The "woke people" aren't out to get you because you don't introduce yourself with your pronouns, nor are they pushing for that ridiculous future hypothetical you set up. They're just looking to help others get by. No need to be so touchy about it.
I think I know what he means. It's perfectly acceptable to just use him or her for 99.999% of people, and if you just so happen to meet one of the 0.001% of people that goes out of their way to draw attention to themselves by being offended, they're probably not worth wasting oxygen on lol
Saying "my pronouns are..." without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion.
What a dumb way to start a conversation.
Between those statements and so much concern about seeming "woke", I don't think they're only worried about the "0.001%" here.
Yeah true, but if you start a conversation with "my pronouns are...", the vast majority of people will assume you're incredibly self-centred, let's be honest here. Not a great way to start a conversation
So we've gone from "0.001% get offended about pronouns" to "It's self centered (ie 'wrong') to introduce yourself with pronouns." Maybe just let people engage with the world in the way that best suits them? Sometimes that includes prefacing an introduction with pronouns to head off any mistakes or discomfort. These people are just trying to get by. Try not to be so judgemental.
While I personally wouldn't go as far as to call people self-centered, I do think Mr Blott has a point, a lot of people may think they are self-centered for immediately declaring their pronouns (or anything else other than your name for that matter).
Anyway, that wasn't what I was trying to say. All I wanted to say is that I don't think that announcing your pronouns is something that will be or should be normalized, since it's pointless for the vast majority of people. I do understand why some people would prefer to do this anyway to avoid the awkward situations like "ahem, actually it's... euuh... he, not she", and I don't have a problem with that.
and I don't have a problem with that.
You both very clearly do. Stuff like calling things pointless and ridiculous, advocating for the "vast majority" or "99.999%" of people? That only serves to isolate and "other"ize. It's hurtful and dismissive of real people. Following it up with "but people can do what they want" doesn't erase what you say. Might as well start it off with "No offense, but..."
If you are truly trying to be kind and accepting here, maybe take some time to self reflect on how you view and talk about these things and what's behind that.
I think all we've learnt from this is that Ech announces his pronouns at the beginning of conversations then wonders why the conversation was so short
"Look at this person advocating for kindness. Bet no one wants to talk to them, am I right?"
What a low-tier, middle school level attempt at bullying.
Why do you spend your days imagining elaborate made-up pronoun conversations? Are you one of those freaks that hate trans people but jerk it to trans porn?
I apologize if my comment sounds a bit whiny or if I sounded a bit touchy. I was just a bit annoyed with the amount of comments that seem to suggest telling people what your pronouns is is a common thing in real life, while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it's obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
But I suppose I could have phrased my comment a bit less aggressively and I could have made my point clear with less rambling.
while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it's obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
Just because you have little knowing experience with people that don't match what you consider "normal" doesn't mean it's near non-existant. You seem to be under the impression that people are going out of their way to address a non-issue when it very much affects real people.
You don't need to do it yourself, but dismissing it, calling it stupid or ridiculous, or just generally insinuating that it's something only weird people do is not helpful or kind. Quite the opposite, really.
The reality is that not everyone can go out of their way to adapt to every minority group in existence. I get that it affects people, but that's just life. Social norms are based on the most common needs and interests of society, not on those of each minority group combined.
As another example, consider neurodivergent people (ASD, AD(H)D, etc.). Such people (including myself) may struggle when trying to live in a world where most people are "normal" (e.g. poor social skills, anxiety, sensitivity to noises, etc.). It would be nice if everyone could adapt to the needs of all others, but it's unrealistic in practice due to how many different people with different needs there are in this world.
I don't go to people and expect them to adapt to my needs either, because I'm not entitled to their effort to adapt. Unless they are close friends, and they get to know me better, then maybe they will choose to avoid doing things that make me uncomfortable.
My point is: stop trying to revolutionize the world and introduce new social norms based on the needs of very tiny groups, you'll only annoy people.
Again, no one is demanding you do this. We're just taking in circles at this point, so I'll just leave it at that, with another suggestion to self reflect if you are earnest about being accepting of others.
no one is demanding you
In that case my previous comment is irrelevant and off-topic. It was a misinterpretation of your comment on my end.
In my original comment I did say that I don't have a problem with people that do tell me their pronouns, even if I do think that's a bit stupid and weird (we will have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid). This does not mean I'm not accepting of others, I only mean that I think this specific kind of social interaction feels weird to me.
I apologize if my opinion of this comes over as unkind or unhelpful. In fact I might even agree that it is unhelpful and unkind, but I much rather share an unhelpful opinion than a dishonest one (perhaps it is better for me to stay quiet in this case). I'm sure many people share my opinion or have a similar one. You also can't expect people to immediately change their opinion or be dishonest about it based on the needs of a minority group.
I also apologize if my initial comment sounded too aggressive and/or hateful. Maybe I should have chosen a more polite way to share this opinion?
I agree that it's weird, but I think sharing pronouns in an introduction is different from sharing ethnicity, place of living, and favorite color.
The latter 3 does not matter in a conversation, but the pronouns are always part of conversations: when you're speaking about Greg, you don't repeatedly say their name ("yeah, Greg has came into office half an hour ago, and Greg has been to the fridge, and Greg has prepared Greg's desktop, Greg is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find Greg in the game room") because that's weird, you instead refer to it in a shorter form after the first time: with pronouns ("yeah, Greg has came into office an hour ago, and he has been to the fridge, and he has prepared his desktop, he is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find him in the game room")So my point is that it shouldn't hurt to also include your pronouns, when it's not obvious, because they will be used, and it will probably bother you. And we all (should) know that unhappy people won't be efficient, not just in work but neither in life. Are you a he? You don't want to be called a she either, right?
Fair point, it doesn't hurt to include it. But my point is that in most cases it's irrelevant and it isn't something everyone has to start doing.
When I go outside and look around me, 99% of the people don't need to tell me what their pronouns are, because I guess simply guess them with high certainty based on how they look. You might disagree with this if you feel like everyone should be able to choose their own pronouns (which is fine by me), but in reality most people don't want to tell you their pronouns, they want you to look at them and just know.
But my point is that in most cases it's irrelevant and it isn't something everyone has to start doing.
I did not yet see this happening IRL, but I can see that just exclaiming it is not appropriate. Though maybe they honestly just don't know what better way is there to introduce themselves, and to be clear, I don't know either.
When I go outside and look around me, 99% of the people don't need to tell me what their pronouns are, because
Because you won't have to do anything with them. They don't tell their name either, because why would they do that, when just passing by on the street?
However at introductions there is a place for the pronouns, however weird it sounds today. I mean, introduction is about letting others know you and your things that you find relatively important.but in reality most people don't want to tell you their pronouns,
Never said anyone would have to. I would never do that either, because is it obvious. Same for most people, because it is obvious. This is an optional thing, even for non-binary people: only those have to tell it who want to do so.