Expressing concerns about moderation policy on lemmy.ml
Expressing concerns about moderation policy on lemmy.ml
This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com: https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781
It has also been posted to lemmy.ca: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991
Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it's important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone's politics, and I'm certainly not here to argue with anyone about them.
My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen.
Moderators of lemmy.ml are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors.
This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml user ban citing "orientalism" as the reason for the ban.
Screenshot of my own instance's modlog, as viewed by an admin
I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in [email protected] that had been removed with the reason "Orientalist article".
Screenshot of banned user's history on lemmy.ml
Here's the article that was removed, titled "China may face succession crisis". It was published by axios.com, which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having "a slight to moderate liberal bias" and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping.
https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/
I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml's rules that would suggest that "orientalism"—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance's front page, and not in [email protected].
Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml
Screenshot of community rules for [email protected]
![Screenshot of community rules for [email protected]](https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/9a5a8a2d-cfac-4658-8ef5-77a885079756.png){kind=link}
There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government.
This is where I went from confused to concerned.
Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml's moderation log.
Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It's hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml moderators. My own instance's mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml community. I've done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml moderators, but I can't be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism.
Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China's racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @[email protected] reason: Orientalism
Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don't know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn't behave like China. by @[email protected] reason: Orientalism
These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance's or community's explicitly stated rules.
Banned @[email protected] reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban expires: 9d ago
Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @[email protected] reason: Rule 1 and 2
I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml's moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It's only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules.
I'd like to raise some awareness about this, and I'd like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly.
I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don't share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml's rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.
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This is a teachable moment for Lemmy users, and Lemmy itself as a whole.
I'm not here to judge anyone's opinions but to clearly state the facts. And the fact is: at least one of the admins of the largest lemmy server considers anti-CCP/Russia sentiment/argument to be harmful and worthy of a ban. That is their decision.
Thus, anyone who disagrees with that, would best move to another server if they wish to discuss those opinions. A worldnews sublemmy on another server such as lemmy.one can be the place where anti-CCP and anti-Russia attitudes are not considered harmful, possibly encouraged at lemmy.one admins and mods' discretion.
This probably will not affect apolitical areas like lemmy.ml/c/pokemon for the most part. However as annoying as this situation is for some, this is why federation is a great thing. Otherwise all of Lemmy would be under rule of admins with these opinions.
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The thing I find wild here is that this presumably Marxist mod is banning criticism of 2023 Russia and China. Russia in 2023 is straight up fascist and China while with more communist dressing is also a capitalist hellscape - like most of the world.
Yeah, support to Russia makes no sense to me. And comparing NATO expansion with Russian try to expand with the war in Ukraine is a really bad take imo
China while with more communist dressing is also a capitalist hellscape
Well, they did a pretty good job at developing their country and capitalists have way less power than in the US or Europe for example.
If you compare it to India, the difference is flagrant. In 1990, they had a similar GDP per capita ppp (source). Now it is 3 times higher. They also take serious actions against poverty according to world bank (source)
However, the ban are clearly excessive. People should be allowed to denounce what happen in Xinjiang and Tibet
China while with more communist dressing is also a capitalist hellscape - like most of the world.
The Chinese economy is still populated in large proportion by private markets, but that doesn't mean it's the same as the rest of the world. I think it's a pat little excuse to not investigate things further just like how to dumb reactionaries China is just "authoritarian communist". It's like how radlibs will tell you the USSR was antisemitic while the far right both of the time and today will tell you it was controlled by Jews, the real goal isn't to advance a specific thesis but to serve a range of theses to a range of people that pit them against an enemy of western imperialism.
The one thing I'm hopeful about is as you say, these issues will sort themselves out in the long term. Lemmy.ml gets to be the popular one out of virtue of being first, but other instances have the ability to grow a lot over time as well.
Lemmy isn't perfect, it has many issues but I think it's got the right structure and ingredients to allow for thoughtful, active communities.
Now, when I joined, I was somewhat taken aback by the sheer amount of propaganda on Lemmy in general, and the somewhat belligerent attitude of some users.
With the new users it should change to be more centrist and we should see less and less this kind of post as they will get downvoted
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God forbid it becomes "centrist." This is not your space; go make your own centrist instance if that's what you want; you have no right to dictate the nature of this one just because you're here. This space was set up by communists to be communist.
Can't wait until Hexbear federates here and libs stop trying to take over.
This is not your space;
Wtf ? Keep it cool man. I joined like one year ago, when it was still labeled as a leftist instance. So I'm okay with it being leftist
A community of privacy and FOSS enthusiasts, run by Lemmy’s developers
However, it is not labeled as such in the sidebar anymore. So, I thought it was going to become a more generalist instance. If not, we should recommend beehaw.org
Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
Also, it is against rule 2 to be that exclusive.
This space was set up by communists to be communist.
Was it? Seriously question. That wasn't made clear to me when I signed up. I never would have signed up had I read that. I suspect the intensity of your views and those of the owner of this instance differ somewhat.
You would be wrong. Research who owns it, look at their profile picture and you'll know in an instant lmao. Just head to the github repo and you'll see.
c/pokemon shouldn't be here then
A worldnews sublemmy on another server such as lemmy.one can be the place where anti-CCP and anti-Russia attitudes are not considered harmful, possibly encouraged at lemmy.one admins and mods’ discretion.
I think that beehaw's news community is the place to do so
is anti-any nation harmful and worthy of a ban? Or is it just anti-CCP/Russian sentiment that's worthy of a ban?